Is the Irish setter a ruined breed?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Breeders say they are active to improve the breed. Statistics on health, scientists and independent setter-experts claim exactly the opposite. Topics on health here inspired this topic. Did breeders make a mess of the Irish setter (called a "ruined breed" by expert Florence Nagle) or not and why, when & how yes or no in your eyes?

[ursula wilby]

Yes, Alenka, I have heard about it.
And sort of skimmed the text as well.
It is not comparing anaestetic with non-anaestetic. But rather two differant types of anaestetics with each other.
Ill see what I can dig up...
Ursula

[Christiane Lohmann]

Sorry to say, but the FCI committee would tell you to throw x-rays WITHOUT anaestetic into the wastepaper basket. The muscle tonus will always help to tighten a loose hip joint into the pelvis and make it look nice. Only if the muscles are totally relaxed, you can tell, if a hip is fitting nicely together or if there is room to 'play', which causes arthrosis etc.
Some older vets still say, they can x-ray even bad hips into good looking ones. Just give only little narcosis...
But this would not imporve the breed.

Perhaps you will find the HD statistics of Finland of interest ? Some kennels of IS have more than 60 % HD C and D. I can look up for the link to the finish kennel klub pc, if you like.

Kind regards
Christiane

[Christiane Lohmann]

Just found it:
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmEtusivu.aspx?Lang=en

In Germany we have to follow EU law, that means you are responsible for sold puppies for any kind of defects. So you pay back puppy price...at least. In case of Hd C, D or E, a dog is regarded as 'sick' and if the puppy-buyer can show that you have used parents or grandparents with HD C, D or E...he can nail you to the next wall. A breeder will have to pay back not only puppy price, but also operations, all sorts of expenses for the owner etc.
As we are not allowed to breed with C, D or E, there is only little problems in that. But I wonder how it works in Finland that there are so many IS with bad hips and nobody seems to care ?

regards Christiane

[Katariina Roiha]

The HD statistics are really bad in Finland. Both show and fieldtype are suffering from this. Though the fieldtype breeders seldomly use a dog with HD C or worse into breeding. In showdogs that has been seen done by a few breeders and with no good results as you can imagine.

In this decade the fieldtype breeders have used only HD A/B to breeding exept in one litter where the bitch was HD C.
And there are about, in maximum, 10 breeders who breed the huntingtype...

[Susan Stone]

It would seem very unusual that Finland has worse statistics than the other countries, seeing as the lineage of the irish setters in Finland is the same as in other countries - covering a broad spectrum of different types. I'd presume that the explanation is that Finland has the most strict xraying and scoring system. What do the Fins say to this?

[Johanna Blacklake]

You're right, Susan!
We have the same lines here, we feed our dogs with similar food and neither would I consider us, the owners, any worse than the rest of you.
The rating systems differ a big time from country to country, unfortunately. I've heard about several cases that the dog with excellent hips xrayed somewhere else than in Finland gets very poor result when evaluated by the vet of our Kennelclub. Therefore I've become very skeptic about the hips results.
Nevertheless, it's still good that we do xray them!

[Ana Gaspar Kozelj]

I asked here on work lot of doctors,than I made a phone call to my cosuin who is vet and a Vet. Faculty in Zagreb-They all laughed at this_"The muscle tonus will always help to tighten a loose hip joint into the pelvis and make it look nice" Sorry,but where did you get this stuff? Does people who said that knows what dyspalzia is at all?
I can imagine though this maybe " they can x-ray even bad hips into good looking ones. Just give only little narcosis..." to place hips manualy,but only for one or half degree....It's human factor that reads picture and decides which grade is dysplazia...So maybe someone can confuse or say-this may be A or B, C or D,if the cases are on limit,but you can't make from D to A,there's no such thing.
Sorry,I'm only talking from medical and fact side.

[Alenka Pokorn]

I also don't think Irish is a "ruined breed". My own dogs generally were quite healthy. Lived until 9 - 13 years. Some "geriatric" problems and an occasional cut on the paw or some other accident was all we've had. Two died of cancer, but we see so much of that in humans today. I do think most breeders today are very dedicated to the breed, but there will always be those who just don't care (money, money, money....). I find the problem in the fact that there are stil quite a few countries where no health checks are needed for breeding. And many of people in those countries have never heard even of CLAD, let alone MO. They first need to be edjucated and this site may help. So we really need to discuss all these matters.

And yes while inbreeding may produced outstanding specimens and fix the good points it also fixes the bad points, so should only be undertaken by really really experienced breeders who know their bloodlines for many generations back and are readdy to admit if there is something wrong.

I agree with Frances that angulations are a problem right now. Specially fronts. We should concentrate on getting this better. I recall quite a few instances when showing my Zennith that the judges were really impressed with her front and we are lucky she passed this on to her kids.

Alenka

[Alenka Pokorn]

I have an address of a vet in South of England who xrays without anaestetic. My friends regularly use that vet to xray their dogs. Should anyone require that, let me know.

Alenka

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ginger is right: info on those experts is missing. Heres only two: Florence Nagle (Sulhamstead d 'Or) and W.J. Rasbridge. Its them saying "ruined breed" and "degenerated from its 1930 standard". Thats Uk, theres lots of sources in the USA telling the same. Both belong -according to experts- to the top of knowledged dogsport of last century.

Rasbridge specified biggest changes "'on both ends", analysing this is especially the case in movement. Under more because what Frances is writing. Both say the top of the breed now would be beaten by say the prewar top. Wheres the improvement? Both say the qualities of the average breeder dropped dramatically...

Theres a lot of tests in all reactions. But ain't most tests except hd simply results from too much prolongated linebreeding (=inbreeding)? And what problem is next diving up, needing a new test? Why do you think for the first time ever the Dutch Irish setter club launches a system for breeders to calculate an inbreeding-percentage over ten generations?

Can't understand Ursula's logic. So the average age drops, where-as vet science is better now? Exactly the opposite for what is happening in humans (age rising). Or are you telling the average age is rising????

Can anyone provide a list on what is in his/her eyes IMPROVED since beginning of breeding-activities? For breeder & breed?

[ursula wilby]

As to my logic:
I never said that the average age is dropping when it comes to Irish setters. I am still claiming that mine tend to get old.
You are the one stating that dogs die younger...

I think the reasons we FEEL that dogs are not as healthy as they used to be are the advanced methods used to identify illnesses.
Also the media plays a huge part in it.
In the "good" old days, we would not have a clue as to what could happen and perhaps was happening healthwise in other countrys. Or for that matter in another part of the country.

I have done a quick calculation on my own dead setters.
I have not included ones run over by train =1
operation gone wrong (anal glands) =1
That leaves 6 irish setters that I have owned and that are now dead.
Their ages when they died ranged between 9 (Cancer) to 15.5
The average age when these dogs were put to sleep is 13.3 years.
I think that is a fair age.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes thats a fair age.

Irish setters die younger than before is based on a spokeswoman active in a committee for health and breeding issues at that time. She mentioned somewhere in the nineties that it was around 12 in the seventies and dropped to ten years.

Looks an intresting topic to me, but to have reliable facts you need many hundreds. Ursula you bred many litters - so maybe you can come up with a few hundred plus some other breeders - thats how we can work this out here.