AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

[Henk ten Klooster]

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete http://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? http://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
........................
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

[Henk ten Klooster]

Discussion re-opened January 11, 2010.Reason:DNA-research in the USA proves genes of Harry's American descendants do not not differ from IRWS registered by IKC, Kennel Club, AKC and FCI. What is your opionion: should the AKC re-register Harry?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

There is a big problem with this "research".
It was based on DNA samples from a number of red and white setters, unregistered crossbreds and a number of allegedly registered purebreds.
The unregistered crossbreds are identified by name, however the people who commissioned the research are refusing to give the names of the unidentified "registered" dogs. So who were they?
Until the dogs are identified and we know that the swabs were taken from the identified dogs, and that pedigrees are reliable, , nobody is going to take this "research" seriously

[Londa Warren]

>Until the dogs are identified and we know that the swabs were taken from the identified dogs, and that pedigrees are reliable, , nobody is going to take this "research" seriouslybr />
Agreed.

Would DNA Parenting Testing of Harry and his sire and dam (which I don't think was available in 1998)have answered this question, one way or another, in the first place? Probably too late now unless there are samples of all three available.

Londa

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Its not Harry that is the real problem. Much of his breeding goes back to the same Moanruad dogs that are behind the IRWS, so there shouldnt be much difference in DNA.
Its the crossbred dogs in the US that diverge genetically much more from the IRWS and have dogs behind them that have nothing to do with IRWS

And in any case,what I object to most is freelance , unsanctioned outcrossing, not subject to any KC planning or controls, then trying to legitimise the dogs retrospectively.
If we need further outcrossing in the breed, than it should be through an open planned,sanctioned and controlled outcross breeding programme, where we know pedigrees are reliable.
NOT private initiatives and skullduggery, and "unreliable" pedigrees, then trying to legitimise the dogs produced

[terry o leary]

I have to agree with Margaret.I received an email from Creg Williams informing me of the results of the "research".I requested on behalf of the IRWSC the names of the owners of the IKC registered IRWS .I also requested the names of the IRWS registered with the IKC used in this "research.I was told this is private and the IRWSC will not be given this infornation.I did ask how did Dr Fretwell confirm that the swabs or blood which were taken from the dogs recorded on the IKC registration papers were in fact the same dogs,again no answer so can we take the results of this "research" seriously I dont think so.On the other hand if this was true it would mean somone here in Ireland has mixed IRWS breeding with American Red Setter breeding hence the reason for not wanting their name or the name of their dogs to be known.If there is nothing to hide those who stand this "research"will publish the information requested. Terry

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did anyone of you contact dr Fretwell directly if so what was the result if not, why not?

[terry o leary]

I see no reason to contact Dr Fretwell he just the person who did the test.As I was informed of the results of the "research" by Creg Williams.I would assume he was one of the persons who organised the "research" so therefore I would expect the any answers in respect to this"research"to come from the people who commissioned it.As I have stated if they stand over the results they should have nothing to hide.

[Henk ten Klooster]

DNA does not lie so why not use it to end this sick series of conflicts within the IRWS fraternity. It could broaden your "family", a matter of survival in a variety so narrow in lineage with dangerous high coi's. And why not be proud of people like Creg Williams coordinating a DNA-research of fifteen (!) IRWS. More people so passsionate as him, could help to pave pathways for breeds future. You would not be around anymore as IRWS without people like him - all fought a test of time.

[terry o leary]

Henk as you say"DNA does not lie" so why are the people coordinating the DNA research of fifteen"IRWS" so afraid of people finding out who the fifteen "IRWS" are. As you seem to know these people,perhaps you could help them to overcome their fear of being open and honest with the rest of the IRWS Clubs and owners.We all have nothing to fear from the truth.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Terry the topic is Harry yes or no correctly removed from AKC-registry.

A list of fiteen tested IRWS in the DNA-scheme plus those before, would broaden this topic to under more the Snowfire IRWS, the story of mr Jennings a passionate American red and white fancier long before IRWS became a breed.

Jennings story is one of passion, as I noted when meeting his widow in the USA. But this is a Harry topic. The IRWS scenery in the USA is so complex that probably nobody would understand this topic anymore.

The crux for the Harry topic is that his descendants in the USA do not differ in the DNA-testing from all others tested, from a variety of registries including IKC.

If you want to get as close as you can to the source, its dr Fretwell to confront with your assumptions in the form of questions. If you don't, you stick to hearsay.

My point: in key issues in these conflicts, no one came up with DNA-research. Creg Williams did.

Wether or not this research or methods could have been better, is something else.It is the idea, a DNA-helicopter above all endless hearsay communication, that counts.

And this idea could maybe in a follow up or new initiative? be used for the benefit of a healthy future for IRWS.

So start working instead of fighting.

[terry o leary]

Henk first get the facts right the IRWS was a breed long before Mr Jennings became interested.In regards to Harry I would be more concerned about some of his offspring than Harry himself.Some of the breeding comes from Jennings breeding which includes English Setters plus Pointers??. This is the reason why the IRWSC has requested the names and breeding of the "IRWS" used in this "research" I have never had a problem with a outcross programme to Irish Red Setters. This could not include dogs which I would call American Red Setters I know that the Irish Red Setter does not accept these dogs as Irish Red Setters and would not want them to be used for breeding to Irish Red Setters in Ireland.Breeding to Irish Red Setters has happened many times before just as Irish Red Setter breeders have bred back to Irish Red &White Setters in the past.Mrs Cuddy use to say there is only one Irish Setter,John Nash stated in the Red Setter Club Book that the Irish Setter should have never been split into two breeds.Finally as to this"research" could lead to a new initative this would have to be based on trust but how can we start when we cant get any answers in regards to this "research,

[Henk ten Klooster]

There is a big chance that Jennings became mixed up and subsequently confused with the American Red Setter debate. That seems exactly what happened to Harry. Under this reactions on Terry's post, italic is O'Leary.

Henk first get the facts right the IRWS was a breed long before Mr Jennings became interested.

In Europe yes, USA no. Jennings is American. Correct me if wrong.

In regards to Harry I would be more concerned about some of his offspring than Harry himself.

Harry had only one litter in the USA – dam UK bred IRWS

Some of the breeding comes from Jennings breeding which includes English Setters plus Pointers??. This is the reason why the IRWSC has requested the names and breeding of the "IRWS" used in this "research"

There was a huge amount of nonsense written about American Red Setters. That´s why I visited them in the Kentucky Wildlife Reservate, to speak with pioneers like Herm David and the widow and son of Ned leGrande.

Yes crosses were done. The best way to chase the truth would be DNA testing. End of debate.

Key foundation bitch of Red Setters is Askews Carolina Lady, combining old American field lines with those of Sulhamstead. One of the main stud dogs in the beginnings was AmFCH Sulhamstead Norse d´Or. This lineage is very interwoven with one of the key bitches in the revival of the working Irish setter in Ireland, Sulhamstead Natty d Or. Much white in those lines.

I have never had a problem with an outcross programme to Irish Red Setters. This could not include dogs which I would call American Red Setters

American Red Setters ARS from now is a topic apart. Personally I would not mind a certain percentage of this. That may work out healthy, a fact in the Norwegian IRS scene. There were also IRS registered in the Field Dog Stud Book with just a little bit or no influence of ARS. And AKC registered with a higher percentage of ARS.

I know that the Irish Red Setter does not accept these dogs as Irish Red Setters and would not want them to be used for breeding to Irish Red Setters in Ireland.

One of the winningest Irish red setters in field trials Ireland is descended from American Red Setters. They are present in the best Scandinavian lines now.

Breeding to Irish Red Setters has happened many times before just as Irish Red Setter breeders have bred back to Irish Red &White Setters in the past. Mrs Cuddy use to say there is only one Irish Setter, John Nash stated in the Red Setter Club Book that the Irish Setter should have never been split into two breeds.

That’s my opinion as well.

Finally as to this "research" could lead to a new initiative this would have to be based on trust but how can we start when we cant get any answers in regards to this "research´´

I have asked Greg Williams to join this debate. According to him dr Fretwell the researcher of Mars Veterinary is aware of these conversations. Hopefully this may generate something fresh & new.