Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Carmel Murphy]

I too like a nice smaller dark eye but our breed standard does not mention the shape of the eye just that they should not be too large!! And ear carriage of working dogs in Ireland is quite good! Here are a couple of working dogs at our Club Show this year showing correct ear carriage and all the working dogs at our show this year had lovely movement and were very nice types(unfortunately the judge didnt give a full critique for the field trial dogs) And they were a lovely class with one I really liked with super movement and body shape!!)

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Nice dogs. And certainly recognizable as Irish Setters according to the breed standard. Although less hair than the show dogs.
A hypethetical question - would anybody with show dogs in Ireland consider using dogs like these in their breeding nowadays?What could they give to the show dogs?
I've also found some of the working dogs in IRWS can move very well - Pepperstown Polly, who has never been ringtrained, moves beautifully, head up , tail out, good topline, long smooth stride , and she passes this on to her offspring too

[Carmel Murphy]

I would like to use a working dog in the future to bring back the stronger hunting instincts, better heads(with beautiful expressions) and the top lines which are so solid on the move!! I would like to see the working dogs come up a bit on height as they can be just a bit too small. I think mixing both can only improve the breed on both sides!! It would also calm down the over feathered show dog and improve the lack of feathering in working dogs(we had a dog in the 50's(working dog) who had a lovely amount of MODERATE feathering;o)) Would also like to get back to the rich chestnut on both sides(both types can have either orange or very dark mahogony which I dont think is correct!!) I just love a vibrant chestnut coat that is almost a fiery red in sunlight(not orange or dark brown!!) My personal preference;o))

[Susan Stone]

These are typical looking Irish even if they don't have the coat we've come to expect. Who are they?

[Carmel Murphy]

Susan the top bitch is wel known Ft.CH.Remkilens T-Ebba(swedish imp) and the bottom one is Lucius Girl but dont know if she is from working lines but presume she is as she is more that type and quite small(she was in junior bitch class) and here is photo of my favourite on the day(even though his stance doesnt do him justice- he moved beautifully)

This boy is Ikerrin Seaneen Rhu bred by T. Dunne

[Susan Stone]

Thank you, Carmel. I've heard of T-Ebba. Will any irish people and dogs be at the summer trial in Shap, run by the ISAE do you know?

[Carmel Murphy]

I have no idea about that Susan, sorry! Perhaps if you contact Hugh Brady(owner of T-Ebba) on the site www.irishredsetterclub.com he may be able to tell you!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Carol Calvert and Gerald Devine usually do all the UK trial circuit. Tim Fox sometimes comes over and Dr Stephen Clarke also, also a couple of people with pointers

[Carmel Murphy]

If as you say we need to look at field trial format and breed standard to produce a dual type setter then I think that is a good thing!! If field trialling is all that a setter is bred for what about those hunters who just want a steady dog with a good nose for their day out shooting? I'm sure not all hunters are also triallers!! Size would not be a priority for the average hunter(I would imagine?) I dont know very much about the hunting side of things!!
And as for "dividing the breed into two sub breeds show and working" I think that already is the case!!!!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Not everywhere the breed is split. A good example is Denmark. You can still find traditional type IRS there, able to work (allround), trial, show, all in one. I admired especially Irmuns May Jasmine (Irish-Danish lines). I saw her beating Europes top of pointers and ES in trials, beating any other hunting breed in all round hunting. She's fourteen years now, still active hunting. Some pics of nowadays IRS there is on http://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=dwpgs#/page0/ Can't wait to see a few back in August!

[kristi schrittwieser]

Henk,
Check this out. I don't know how good this is. H here is an american/european crossed red setter in the netherlands. I hope they don't import more american dogs. I love the look of the european setter.

http://www.dejachthond.nl/

[kristi schrittwieser]

They are almost identical to US field dogs.