Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I'm getting lost here. What are AFBRS and AFBIS? Do you mean AFDSB?

[kristi schrittwieser]

Sorry Margaret I am refering field american dogs as AFBIS and field bred irish setter in Europe made a typo.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Kristi, I would be interested to know if you are comparing the current field dogs in America with the Irish current field dogs or the Irish Setter from the 1960's referring to the dogs in the Derrcarne article which Henk posted as the starting point which is the current discussion?

[Cheryl Gorey]

"Please do not use the American show Irish Setter (the Meadowlarks dog) as an example of the rest of the world. There are still countries outside America where the breed has not been turned into a travesty as has happened to the breed IN SOME HANDS in the US. (Note, some, not all.) The Red Setter (not the Irish Setter) in the US is often (but not always I hasten to add) the product of an ancestry littered with cross breeding to produce what was required by the US hunters. Fine, if that is what they wanted. But do not tell me that dog is an Irish Setter."

Yes, I agree Pat Good to see you contributing to the discussion.

[colette tuite]

What does'nt seem to have been brought into the debate is the health issues that affect irish setters.Have they changed over the past 50 years? I know it is not scientific to say that i feel that despite having such large numbers of show irish setters (ie there can be over 400 entered at a championship show )it can and is a veritible minefield to try to decide who to mate your dogs to ,to avoid bringing in unwanted genetic/unknown genetic defects.A show breeder is faced with trying to sidestep:- bloat,epilepsy,monorchids,megaoesophagus,entropian as the main ailments. The working Irish setter seem to be remarkably healthy by comparison with the field breeder only having to consider:- hip dysplasia,undershot mouths,temperments and i have heard of pet irish from working lines also having bloat and one field dog who had entropian. These would be good grounds for people to consider breeding to an outcross from working lines to improve the health alone. I do think people hide behind the fact that if the mode of inheritence is unknown they continue breeding defects, where as if they operated from an assumption that every ailment was brought about about by the coming together of two recessive genes it would form a starting point of eliminating these defects until it was later scientifically verified.Why wait?

[Ossian]

Damn I was just going to run the dogs and get some shopping..........Really good tangent Colette

[Margaret Sierakowski]

This is a good point. Breeders of show IRWS have recently been willing to take some working lines into their own breeding, more on health and genetic grounds , than because they want to improve working ability.

[Susan Stone]

I agree, Colette. I'm afraid this brings us back to the fact that despite there being a huge number of Irish being shown they are in actual fact very closely related with most of today's winning type going back to the same few dogs.
Having said that, surely the working side of the breed is faced with a similar problem of inbreeding for as far as I know the numbers of working stock can not be very high. Does breeding for fitness and stamina possibly override the health issues that would be expected due to inbreeding?
Sorry, this should of course come under a different heading...

[eva ciechonska]

Colette, do we scientifically know that the working dogs are healthier. I am not asking for any reason other than to ascertain whether mating to a working dog would be safe or whether we would be opening up another can of worms.
I do think the the breeders of today are more open about health problems than they were 50 years ago. If the impression given is that health has deteriorated it is only because it is more discussed. We are reaping the backlash of health issues not admitted to in the 60's and maybe even before. Bloat, entropion, epilepsy were all know conditions when I started and CLAD was more than likely lurking in the background too, just not as a recognised affliction.

[kristi schrittwieser]

I am still getting used to this forum. I think my posts are all over the place, LOL.
Eva I was saying I am not an expert but what are the main differences between the two breeds. I understand all originally go back to hunting lines but I am sure the lineage in the US goes back to Ireland and England. Let me know. They look almost idfentical to the show bred in the US.

http://www.irishsetter.org.uk/Champions/Champions.htm

[kristi schrittwieser]

This is interesting. Look at how the hunters are crossing the golden retrievers with the IRS. They are trying to bring the breed back. I heard they are doing one generation of out crossing and they will then breed to the field golden again.

http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/goldirishpacker.jpg

[eva ciechonska]

The UK show dogs are not as tall and are more typical in head to the dogs of 50 years ago and of course do not carry the length of fringes on either body or ears. UK dogs are not stacked the same way as the tail is not held up but level with the back and the majority do not move with the tail up either. They are not as angulated in the hindquarters. or as extreme in make or shape. You are very welcome to come over and see and compare. Maybe see you around the UK rings or even at a FT in the not too distant future.