Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Cheryl Gorey]

You may be right about why the ring size was brought up. Some handlers seem to think if they go round the ring like "a bat out of hell" then the judge may not see their faults. I always appreciate a judge who will ask for the dogs to be gaited at a slower speed as it is better to see true action, drive and soundness.

I would like to know more about the changes in the Gordons due to breeding for health reasons?

What do you see has changed in the Irish heads. It is the head shape or the eye shape, etc, etc. Love to know all!

[kristi schrittwieser]

Michelle,
I am sure people on this board will jump down my throat. I have read on several occassions that speculation suggests a blend of land and water spanials, Irish Terriers, Pointers, Irish Water dog and a blend English Setter and Gordon Setter were probable contributers to the IS.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Historiography is not much done in Irish setter-circles. That means comparing history sources from different cultures and writers on some subjects. Indeed many American books provide often GS and ES as forefathers of IS. Quite a few European do the reverse and last is documented by early pedigrees very well.

In my eyes most interesting was the pedigree of the legendary winningest red setter in early American field trials over days, in lots of publications followed step by step: Joe Junior beating the most famous ES from his days. It makes even today fascinating reading (see Thompson The Irish setter in word and picture). This pedigree blows away most leading theories on genetics of colors as well.

One of the last Campbells, breeder/owner of Joe Junior were visited by Red Setter people to try to chase origins, under whom Herm David. This is just documenting that the Holy Setter Grail might be something totally different in USA and other cultures, depending on sources seen as leading.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hank I know Joe Junior in the hall of fame, of course from the NRSFTC. I don't know his psdigree at all. I know he was bred from Irish origins. I will try and find what you sent me.If you know more about his pedigree can you tell me. You seem to know a great deal about the American field dogs. More then I do.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Joe Junior was red with some white, registered as an Irish setter likewise his dam although neither was purebred. His sire was Elcho (red), dam Buck Junior (lemon or fawn).

You can find the pedigree on pp 43 The Irish setter in word and picture by W.C. Thompson (Richmond/Va 1954). Same book pp 43,45,46 provides a full report on his race against English setter Gladstone as published in the magazine Turf Field and Farm December 15, 1879.

Joe Junior in in nearly all nowadays pedigrees umpteen times if you go back far enough.

[kristi schrittwieser]

I dont have the bog. I saw it on the setter sight but never bought it. I am going to buy it. I know Joe Jr is in all the pedigrees of today. What do you mean by neither were pure breds. I am going to buy the book on line now.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Purebreds - is a quote of Thompson. So read: in the eyes of Thompson neither was a purebred.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Is Thomas on this board.

[Henk ten Klooster]

What Thomas do you mean?

[kristi schrittwieser]

Thomas who wrote The Modern Setter

[Henk ten Klooster]

The Modern Red Setter was published by the National Red Setter Field Trial Club in 2001 when the club celebrated its fity years of existance in a limited edition of 1000. For those searching for direct sources instead of hearsay present in abundance, the ISBN is 0-9716095-0-0. Author was Truman F. Cowles, who died soon after publication.

[kristi schrittwieser]

You were referring to William Thompsons book The New Irish Setter.