Conflict over COI

[Henk ten Klooster]

“A first step forward for future” is how the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club describes a proposal to forbid combinations for breeding with a higher coefficient of inbreeding (coi) than five. Reason is “a rise of inheritable defects” like epilepsy, showing a clear connection with COI above five. A group of mostly show breeders tries to prevent this new rule being accepted on the annual general meeting. They launch another proposal, maintaining freedom of breeders to breed above that maximum.
What is your opinion?

[Susan Stone]

Does not the inbreeding coefficent have to be defined by stating over how many generations it is to be calculated? My dutch is no good but I could not find this in the proposal.
May first impression is: makes sense to me.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Its a proposal to be welcomed in general. However its easier for numerically large and well established breeds, but may be harder for numerically small breeds, especially where there are already other restrictions on breeding. In my breed, Irish Red and White Setters, where all the dogs originate from a small handfull of survivors in the 1970s, a COI of 5 or less is quite difficult to achieve. And in those countries where the dogs have to meet other requirements for breeding as well , like a good hip score or a working test, its even more difficult. If we can get a COI of 10 or less, we are doing pretty well!
For the working IRWS which have a very small gene pool, I would think a COI of below 5 would be nearly impossible , it could only be done by outcrossing to show bred dogs - which most field triallers would not want to do
Margaret Sierakowski

[Susan Stone]

How I wish I knew more about genetics... it is such a complex subject and so difficult to come to grips with as there are many traits that do not follow the simple Mendel mode of inheritance.
I'd still like to try and put across my opinion on the subject...
I am not sure if I agree with you Leen about 'the problem is not inbreeding as it does not create deficiencies but lack of selection'.
To my understanding there are what are called threshold traits that are experssed when a higher level of inbreeding is attained. These threshold traits such as some types of epilepsy, predisposition for allergies, predisposition for some types of cancer, etc. are not passed on by one single individual, who may have a low threshold of these deleterious genes. But once a certain threshold of 'bad' genes has been reached, BANG! we have a problem...
Of course knowing as much as possible about one sire will help, but who can tell what his genotype really looked like? By linebreeding to this excellent and healthy sire we are reducing the diversity of the breed. This can, over many generations, lead to what is called an inbreeding depression. The inbreeding depression is said to lead to a general reduction of vital traits.
According to my literature examples of threshold traits are - amongst others - tumors, heart problems, metabolic problems, immune related disease, joint problems, epilepsy, bloat, etc.

Where I do agree is that different bllodlines should be preserved, giving more diversity to the breeds.

Margaret, I know the Red&White Setter have a very small gene pool when compared to the Irish Red. But I wonder if the use of 'popular sires' is not leading the Irish Red into a similar predicament? There is an earlier forum on this site where Ann Millington goes into this subject.

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

Maybe inbreeding would not be a problem if you knew all about the lines you breed on. Unfortunately not everybody is honest about all problems and defects that is in some bloodlines. As Camilla says that SKK is providing us with this program, but what do SKK know about our problems? They do not know about EP, hearts and so on. Some kind of PRA maybe but not all. I also agree with Camilla that a big problem is use of same mail all to often. That leaves us in the end without no choise. As Susan wroted that this will make our gene pool limited.
My opinion is that to much inbreeding is NOT healthy to our breed.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for youw views.

Interesting to read in posts that the problem is not inbreeding, but not knowing enough of lines involved.

This is a dominant view in publications I've read of a breeder of key dogs that currently stamp our breed - Jimmy James in his breednotes in Our Dogs.

In May 1974 he wrote under more ...."never having experienced epilepsy in Irish setters in our own kennel in over forty years (although we had a Labrador retriever dog which had several fits during a long life with no evidence either in his forebears or his progeny)".... ending with ..."The hereditary angle is obviously a very important one when breeding livestock, but it is dangerous in my view to allow this to supersede commonsense."......

In more or less the same way bloat, agressiveness and hd were discussed.

Interestingly the other author of breednotes -Rasbridge- sticked to facts and named ones dying from bloat, adding just like his grandsire etc.

In 1980 -six years after the quote above- Rasbridge wrote that wrong characters, hd, entropion, swimmers, epilepsy and megaloesophagus were probably of genetic origin. He also pointed at the huge decrease of bloodlines in half a century.

Over time, the view of Rasbridge has proven to be right. Pedigrees in "Irish setter show champions in Great Britain" and follow ups show a hugely rising COI for both keykennels and their descendants.

So scientists without inside knowledge of our breed claiming inbreeding is the reason for current problems, may find sign posts of this happening in publications over decades.

Still doubts whether or not it is inbreeding as independent source of problems, since Rasbridge named in 1980 as well that there was an "amazing progress" in the Irish setter in Ireland as field trialer. "it has never been as good as nowadays" he even states.

Keen students of pedigrees will observe that in the case of Moanruads it was a traditional way of linebreeding. Although more families were involved in the make-up, thats a difference. Plus a selection based on performance and mental attitudes is different to one only based on showresults.

Leaving the questions:
1) Is not inbreeding the problem, but lack of tests on physical and mental properties as done in showbreeding?
2) When inbreeding is the problem, when did or will problems occur in working lines?
3) How to collect reliable information knowing the history of our breed is one of hiding main defects (most clearly demonstrated in the USA-history) in breedbooks?

The main question of this topic - who is responsible for a limit of the COI breeders or a committee of a breedclub- is alas not yet answered. I guess most breeding in the UK of Irish setters in the UK would be forbidden if the proposed "Dutch system" entered over there. And gone most red and whites right Margaret, for example.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I can see why an upper limit of 5% on COIs is a good thing to aim at long term, but to impose it generally on all breeds and now, seems like overkill. I think it would be better to set an appropriate upper limit for each breed individually, and maybe an interim upper limit eg 10% or 15% for a number of years, with the aim of eventually reaching 5%
Some small breeds might need to start higher, and would have difficulty in ever getting to 5%. Or if forced to accept a 5% ceiling would find themselves breeding from some poor quality dogs, or dogs with genetic defects, who wouldnt otherwise have been bred from. Or having to look at outcrosses to another breed (some people might think this would be a good thing)
There are some breeds which are numerically greater, but have widespread genetic problems , for example Cavaliers with heart disease and Syringomyelia. They may need to line breed for several generations from their small number of dogs who dont carry the defects in order to increase the healthy population in those breeds.

So yes, I think long term its fine to be putting a ceiling on COIs but in practical terms its not so simple, a sudden 5% limit for all breeds is like using a sledhammer to crack a nut, you could end up doing a lot more unplanned damage. The scheme needs more subtlety and flexibility
Margaret Sierakowski

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thats a clear view. So providing breeders time for improvement. But would not a sledhammer come down on an owner of a pup, becoming sick and reading later it was because breeders needed a little more time?

[Susan Stone]

I think we can acknowledge the wealth of knowledge that Mr Wendover James had, and at the same time also see the limitations that were dictated by those days and times. Rasbridge was way ahead of anyone else, being a very scientific man. It would not be fair to condemn either, so many years later.

Of course working traits can be improved by inbreeding just as other traits can be bred for. But this does not mean that no problems occur! It comes to my mind that the Moanrad dogs at one time were of decent size... but got smaller with time and there was once talk of a dwarfism being present in some working lines. Truth or hearsay? I don't know. The point is that if no records of the develoment of whole litters are kept, then it is easy to say 'there are no problems'...

[Susan Stone]

sorry, I got thrown out... just wanted to reply to Henk's final question: sometimes drastic measures are necessary and a good thing. But maybe this measure is a bit too drastic at present? This measure only concerns the Irish Red Setter I believe?

[Henk ten Klooster]

The Irish Setter Club of the Netherlands is still parentclub for Irish red setters and Irish red and white setters, so both. People proposing and opposing (Diane van der Valk) are on this list so they might give you an answer on your question maybe etc?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Susan - With a COI that high it may benefit breeds future to analyse publications of people responsible for breeding keydogs.

It is not in breeds interest to close your eyes for their limitations, that did not get a place in breedbooks. It is of huge interest for the breed to highlight that keybreeders in our breed had such huge limitations, that once in more cultures Irish setters were near to total extinction.

They say a chain is as strong as the weakest part. For our breed, the weakest part is reliable information...

I agree, you cannot say there are no problems when no records of whole litters are kept. That is the case in all of the world all lines, except the Netherlands.

[Susan Stone]

I find your SKK program really excellent, the same goes for the finnish version! It is certainly a help for breeders but as you say it does not save the breeder from gathering information him/herself. And yes, you can have a big problem of HD or epilepsy when mating unrelated mongrels together - outcross is no guarantee for perfect health.
I once heard a talk on the subject and I still agree with what was said there: an individual breeder can do inbreeding to some extent without harming the breed as a whole. It is when ALL breeders use the same dogs over and over again, causing the COI to rise for the WHOLE BREED that we end up with a problem...