Take care ! breed standard respect in France

[Cathy Forster]

I would like to draw your attention to the irish red setters judgments in French shows. Especially I would like to draw your attention to the French Irish setter club, the red club’s practices and their bad influence on the French judges. History repeats itself !

I went to Lyon’s international dog show, the last 5^th June, and took part in with my dogs under the close observation of the red club’s members and its president. My lovely Cotton Candy obtained 1. Place in open class with the qualification excellent and excellent comments. After, she was immediately ejected before the final judgment (for the attribution of the CAC and the CACIB). I was asked from the judge to leave the ring.

Why ? (I cite the judge)

“My bitch is too tall. She cannot obtain the CAC and this are the directives of the red club". Cotton Candy measures 60 cm but this day she was measured 61.5 cm. Her height is OK with regard to the irish red setter FCI breed standard !!!!! but it’s not OK for the Reb Club who’s limiting the height at 60 cm !!!!!

Of course I was disillusioned and in disagreement but the only thing to do was to send a complaint to the French kennel club, and that’s what I did. I’m still waiting for an answer !

The Red Club doesn’t respect the FCI breed standard, in disagreement with the FKC, the judge was influenced and doesn’t respect the FCI breed standard, even when it was an international dog show !

It’s unacceptable and I want to warn you because a lot of you are coming to the next French championship and to the World dog Show. What can we expect ?

Please, pay attention to the judgments.

Herewith my letter and a foto from the club's directives !

[Henk ten Klooster]

Well as a debator you no doubt know about pathos, logos and ethos, Eva. It isn't an art to win here on showdebates..., you have won no matter how good or bad your debating techniques are. By numbers only already...

 

But maybe you discover all howling a same concert isn't a best way to enlighten brains. So search for opposers, meet debate and benefit results.

 

You know that I'm a student of those (no matter backgrounds) who can tell you something about our breed. Like one of breeds biggest experts, Jean Hostin from France, active in the World Congress of Dogdom in Dublin, but never translated in English.

 

This is my request: discover other worlds of thoughts in another way than demonstrated here. Its the best taste of setterpleasure to know all tastes!

 

Well thats it, now sailing off for a new working puppy from Ireland.

 

 

 

[eva ciechonska]

Henk......it isn't an art here to win on show debates....but there is no art nor merit to debate unless you have a valid point to make and a modicum of knowledge to add weight to it, otherwise you are just blowing in the wind.   This is, after all,  a debate about the questionable practices of the Red Club of France with respect to behavior at dog shows.  So, in effect, a show debate. You came into it on the side of the Red Club, why change direction onto another subject...have you no further argument to propose?

Why did you bring up the demise of the Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter......please clarify. 

I am glad you are sailing off to Ireland for a new working puppy.  At least you will get quality and type.

[Cathy Forster]

Henk, just a little answer that is outside of the subject of this discussion. I was an active member of the Red club from 1991 to 2007, was member of the commitee too, was organising field-trial, clubshow, was writing the magazine for a few times and over all was always defending the irish setter without distinction under show and working dogs. I was always preaching a large tolerance and ethic behaviour in each competition. I'm a french breeder and participate into french shows since 1988, but also into other european countries shows. My husband is training our dogs and goes to field-trial in several countries where our dogs are qualified. We have 3 trialers at home. Two of them are show champions too.I cannot accept such a behaviour from an FCI judge and from a breed club, even it is perhaps the last who's providing working dogs. It's not an excuse for abusing !

 

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks for your reactions Eva and Cathy. Yes ofcourse clarifying is ok, this contirbution is not debate but exchange of maybe interesting information. 

 

Eva wrote: >Why did you bring up the demise of the Hartsbourne type of Irish Setter......please clarify./p>

 

France is a country with at least in recent past lineage disappeared elsewhere like Derrycarne (Hostin)/Mullenculain and Hartsbourne. I remember a bitch coming over here to be mated with my dog who had all this lineage (she was a show champion and ok for trialling).

 

The disappearance of Hartsbourne type and lineage is in my eyes a shortsighthed result of trends in shows.But that is another topic. 

 

Eva wrote: I am glad you are sailing off to Ireland for a new working puppy.  At least you will get quality and type.

 

All of the French trialling scene is based upon Irish working setters. What you make of it is a matter of selection. 

 

My valid point still stand: you do not come any further with discussing only with people who agree with you on main subjects....

 

Cathy, I understand your post. But if a group is focussing on just one point, I will focus the other side of a medal because that's how you can learn. Although howling a same concert does makes you feel comfortable.

 

Still an observation to share, when I met working experts I felt myself quite some expert on Irish setters. After that, I knew it was necessary to study a lot more.... It added hugely to the fun, pleasure and most of all knowledge of our common obsession which is Irish setters.

 

Hopfefully one day for eveyone the light shines, that is all information not just a part of the truth that is always false.... Anyway, enjoy!

[Glory&Valery degli Angeli Rossi]

That's true....so bad!

I was in Nantes two years ago and was a big Shock for us...first day was ok, All rounder judge, so not from Red Club and was ok!

Second day...directly from Red Club...the Vice-President...was incredible day!!! Our Brigitte was 1exc r.CACIB...but nobody can belive who was CABIB and BOB, a bitch same like the dogs on your photo album...but the most Terrible thing...the Judged two different breed in the same ring!!!! I was in front with Brigitte and the second one was a German Pointer!!!! I never seen that in my life. So i think can be so funny WDS...i enter my dogs but i will go without any hopes, especially with bitch...we will see, maybe they remeber we are at World DOG SHOW of FCI.....Maybe can be good to print a copy of FCI standard and if they apply a French standard put this on the jury's table :-)

[Cathy Forster]

I hope it will be a real WDS and I suggest you to print too the letter I received from the SCC (it's joined to my complaint).

Henk, there is no problem with the wonderful work of the red club for hunting dogs and hunting competition, if you accept that they only want excellent field-trial dogs trained by professionnal and that they have no interest in simple hunting dogs like a lot of setters in France that go hunting in the fields with their owners in automn !

The problem is here that the Red Club doesn't respect the FCI breed standard who is THE ONLY ONE. I mean the standard is written with a lot of tolerance and there is a place for a lot of setters, isn't it ? So why do they change the standard ? What do they expect ?

[Cathy Forster]

thank you for your researchs !

[McBIRDY - Jean DUHANT]

I think the discussion has turned with the reply from Mrs. Ch. Godart about names of dogs.

The problem is not that some countries have various rules to fix name of dogs or that some owners don't want to give a nickname to their dogs (about this it's my opinion and I know that others people have the same views - see article of Wilco Jansen in the last ISC NL bulletin).

I repeat in this discussion the problem is not there. It's a problem of ethics. It's not acceptable that a judge asks for the name of the dog ! The judge has not to ask any questions to the handler. Only one is acceptable: the age of the dog (and personnaly I think it's not necessery becuase there are various class depending of age).

But generally, in this dicussion, the only point is that at a show organized under the FCI rules, judgements must be realized according to FCI rules !

Judges have to respect the standard of the breed drawn up by the country responsible for the breed: in our case Ireland, nothing else !

I hold the Cathy's proposal: we have to print the letter she received from the SCC confirming the rules.

See you Sunday

[Cathy Forster]

I just had a look of the results of Lyon's show published by cynoprint. It's incredible ! There is no CAC-CACIB for the bitches. I was so angry that I didn't see the end of the judgements !!! does it mean that the judge didn't dare to give them to an other bitch because of my protestations ?

It's not sufficient but it's a beginning.

http://www.cynoprint.com/ccdog/dfiles/RESULTATS%20LYON.pdf

[James Doran]

The guillotine would sort them out Cathy!!!!!!

[Vanessa Woodward]

This is a very late reply Cathy as I haven't visited the site for some time.  I lost Tara last month after over two years of poor health so have not been showing.

 

I am amazed that this old argument is still going on.  I thought Sian Thomas and I had won this argument a few years ago and I believe Sian has a letter somewhere, I think from the SCC, stating that the Red Club could not impose its own Standard.  I think I am correct in that the Standard in any country affiliated to the FCI must be that of the FCI standard which is always that of the country of origin of the breed - in this case Ireland.  That was changing over a period of years and I don't know the height standard as of today.

 

The day after this first reared its ugly head several years ago, Sian and I were attending a show, (I think it was Montauban) and the judge, somewhat embarrassed, had received his instructions from the Red Club which he insisted he had to apply thereby disqualifying all but Tara who, with her legs stretched back as far as possible in the hope of reducing her height, just about made the grade.  Sian and I didn't wait for the end of the show but insisted on leaving immediately.  Lots of correspondence followed.  You may have heard this story at the time but having just picked up on this discussion I thought it was worth repeating.  If it's new to you, suggest you contact Sian Thomas who will have all the details.