AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

[Henk ten Klooster]

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete http://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? http://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
........................
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Silvia wrote "I fully agree with your there Margaret - Harry has nothing to offer what we do not already have. And I think we have much better than what he has to offer"

Around seven years ago, I was sent a video of Harry to look at. It was also seen by a very well known and old breeder of working IRWS, and we spent an evening playing it several times and discussing the idea of using Harry. At the end, he said that even if this had been a registered IRWS from all red and white breeding, from what he had seen on the video, he still wouldnt be interested in using this dog. At that time Harry was still registered as a red Irish Setter, so why go through a great deal of hassle only to produce something that would be no better than anything we had got already, and possibly not as good?.
Harry went to the US with a huge amount of publicity, only to be mated to a show bred bitch from the UK , and produced some not particularly outstanding puppies, none of whom have ever achieved anything in field trials in the US and cant be registered with AKC, so what was the point?

I have really never understood why there has been so much fuss about Harry. If he hadnt been born from two red parents, who would ever have heard about him ? Based on objective assessment of his own achievements as a working dog and stud dog, what is special about him?
He simply isnt in the same league as working and FT red and whites like Rushfield Rascal or Craigrua Aran, both of whom have had outstanding records both in field trials and as stud dogs, Aran in addition also being a particularly nice example of breed type
Margaret

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk, What happened to the other two red and white puppies from red parents that you and Gerard took over to America with Harry in March 2001 ? They went to Jean Plummer. Does she still have them? How were they registered in Holland? And how were they registered in the US? Have they been bred from?
Margaret

[Henk ten Klooster]

Scanning your reactions quickly after a week of enjoying hunting and training over red family of Harry (Danish and Dutch).

There was yesterday a report by telephone on a field trial in Ireland telling Harry's daughter Pallas Green Harriet got a 1excellent in a trial. Not the first. So I think doubts expressed in posts here on his competence for field trials or those of his descendants are (again) proven wrong.

I don't see any posting on the topic "is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?" It is sidetracks I read. I would appreciate an opinion with arguments. Right or wrong?????

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk, you tell us what Harry would ADD to the IRWS gene pool. The only valid reasons for an outcross are to improve a breed or to eliminate a genetic problem.
Is Harry a BETTER working dog than what we have already? What is his record in field trials? Is he an outstanding example of breed type? Is he free of genetic and health problems that affect IRWS? Is he an outstanding stud dog? What have his offspring achieved?
Genetically how much diversity would he bring to the gene pool?

[Henk ten Klooster]

A valid reason is provided by yourself in the discussion on the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) in IRWS. Because the average relatively very high COI in IRWS threatens its future. Ann may reread her own remarks on this as well.

As for your question what has his offspring achieved - today there was a telephone call reporting his daughter Harriet has enough wins now in Ireland for the title of field trial champion. As for health etc. - the ones I knew (Harriet was here for half a year) were tops.

As for outstanding well that depends on your definition but I'd say an IRWS able to compete with red setters during EC's plus gaining excellent in a show is a good setter. Not the UK showtype of IRWS - but the type needed for stimulating the reason this variety was revived: as a WORKING setter.

The diversity is under more in the quarter Danish lines. Breeders of working red setters in Ireland tried in the nineties to import from Denmark, because they were (at that time) absolute top. That failed. So IRWS now have an advantage compared to their red family. In Ireland and so FCI.

So a repeat: why not SEARCH for more Harry's????

[Christiane Lohmann]

"The diversity is under more in the quarter Danish lines. Breeders of working red setters in Ireland tried in the nineties to import from Denmark, because they were (at that time) absolute top. That failed. So IRWS now have an advantage compared to their red family. In Ireland and so FCI."

Don't overdo it, Henk. I am on board here as well. It was ONE male from Kennel VESTKLIT, so-called farm-mating product and absolutely not typical for danish breeding with normally has ENGLYST CACHA /CANEL behind, who had a big performance and got a 1st price in junior class on Danish Irish Setters Clubs main trial. Someone from Ireland was over in Denmark along with Ray O'Dwyer and asked, if this male was for sale. The young owner said NO and this is the end of that story. Neither the dog nor his owner did ever appear again in public.

O.K. ?
regards
Christiane

[Henk ten Klooster]

There was another one in that time (nineties), Tommy Pedersen told me when visiting last week. She performed that well in a trial in the Netherlands, that two people tried to buy her.

First madame Poillong (Razaderie) stating -according to him- just name your price. Second....Eric Lynch, secretary of the Irish Red Setter Club. And during festivities eleven years ago in Denmark I met a third one who had been asked to sell his dog.

Plans of buying an Irish setter in Denmark in that time to raise the aulity of Irish workign red setters in Ireland were confirmed during visiting Ray O'Dwyer in around 1997.

So the story is certainly not overdone....

[Christiane Lohmann]

I would not regard Tommy as a reliable source;-)))
And Madame Poillong is french not irish.
Two people (?) wanted to buy "another" danish IS that performed well on dutch trials ? Nothing to do with "danish blood supports Irelands working setter kennels"Knowing you as well as I do, I am sure you would perfectly know the name of that IS...or was it Gerards Rosendales-bitch ?

Nevertheless, I also like danish Irish setters.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Christiane there were three Danish telling about plans to buy dogs from them by Irishmen in the nineties. The plan to import from Denmark was confirmed by Ray O'Dwyer.

That seems reliable information to me, whether or not you regard one of them as a non-reliable source.

It has nothing to do with the Rosendales-bitch you mention. That Razaderie is French is known - mention of it was made to document interest there was at the time for that particular bitch - both from Ireland and France.

Harry's pedigree is one quarter Danish: Lasse, in your pedigrees as well and related ones. So I don't think that you consider these lines NOT a good addition to IRWS lines.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Henk, I am tired of this repeating and confusing different things. You should name horse and rider, otherwise it is too confusing for me to keep track of "THAT good danish bitch which had a good performance here" and "THOSE" people, who want to buy , etc...;-)))

With all these journalistic talent you have, you should not only be able to repeat again and again those few infos about Harry, i.e. his start at the EC, his trial in the states and his good daughter in Ireland, but give more and clear facts.
- Here are his parents and grandparents...the past
- Here are his littermates and himself...the present
- Here are all his offsprings...the future.
Give me names, results and facts. Give me the good and furthermore the bad infos.
How many HD results do you have officially from this family tree ?
How about CLAD ?
Trials ?
Exports ?

And last but not least...Tommy Pedersen and his Lasse...neverending story. I know Tommy since 1987, when he came with Lasse as a puppy on his arms to the main trial. I have been in contact with danish IS for all that time. Lasse was a good dog, but the rest is bragging and overdone stories. Mainly because Tommy likes to brag and you like to take it for true and write about it. Although I see some great quality in the offsprings of Lasse, he is not THAT outstanding. And he never did that fantastic on trials either.

About bringing his blood into the IRWS genpool...WHY ? His lines are IS. Going back to purest red dogs. No Moanruad behind. No shower of hail or other IS with much white. Following the danish pedigrees, they trace back for 20 generations to pure scandinavian red dogs.

[Ann Millington]

Regarding high COIs - they are the result of concentrating breeding for one trait - be it conformation or performance. This in its turn reduces breed diversity - narrows the Gene Pool. Persuading breeders to heed this is OK on paper, but when it comes to practice few are prepared to 'sacrifice' working performance or show success.

Henk, all you have said to commend Harry as an addition to the IRWS Gene Pool is that he has had some success in the field (no FT title?) and that one of his offspring has won her title in Ireland.
You say " As for health etc - the ones I knew (Harriet was here for half a year) were tops."
Sorry, Henk, this is not good enough. There are several inherited diseases in Irish Setter and IRWS for which health tests are required - If Harry is an IRWS (as you say) what is his tested status for CLAD, VWD, PPC, CHD? If he is an Irish setter (as his pedigree says) what is his tested status for PRA, CLAD, vWD, MO, Epilespsy, CHD? He would have to have been tested for these before anyone (with sense and love of the breed) would look at him - even if he were the greatest FT Ch in the world.
Having spent a great amount of time, money and effort in reducing and eliminating these conditions in IRWS, no one is risking possibly re-introducing them just to have Harry in their pedigrees - however 'tops' his health appears.

An evaluation of the Gene Pool and breed diversity, reducing COIs, considering 'type', discussing the way forward for the breed, are just a sample of topics to be discussed at the IRWSCGB 25th Anniversary Conference in June 2009. This is an opportunity for all those interested and concerned about the breed to learn more and have their say in a friendly atmosphere - and to see hopefully around 100 IRWS gathered together for the Championship Show on the following day.

If your interest in the breed goes beyond "able to compete with red setters during ECs plus gaining excellent in a show..." then you'll be there to try to see other points of view and gain more knowledge.
Too many people have a lot to say but refuse to accept that there many be other, just as valid, opinions.
There is still time to save up and come - everyone is more than welcome!!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Although much of the content is sidetracks and off-topic, I’ll react where appropriate on posts of Christiane and Ann.

I guess it is passion that makes both of you dive much deeper and broader into all of this, probably as well because of being experts in under more Scandinavian lines (Christiane) and health monitoring of the IRWS-genepole.

The topic is “AKC strips Harry &descendants from the registry - right or wrong?” and –later: only one Irish setter or two or more? Whether you like it or not, if you start a topic here, the borders of it are those that the starter of the topic makes with all the instruments along (including deleting posts or a topic).

I am very interested in everything else you write, so this is merely to show respect for your viewpoints. If you see another topic in it, please feel free to start one.

Christiane – you are right a balanced view on Harry, past, present, future credits & critics is not provided in this topic although it can add to such a thing. This is a discussion topic, not an article or lecture or whatever.

It simply deals with a registry problem: where one first generation is stripped from registry (AKC/USA), in another (IKC/FCI/Ireland) there is a field trial champion (Harriet) in the first generation soon.

As for Scandinavian lines, your statement (capitals mine) .“About bringing his (Lasse-Henk) blood into the IRWS genepool...WHY ? His lines are IS. Going back to purest red dogs. NO MOANRUAD BEHIND. No shower of hail or other IS with much white. Following the danish pedigrees, they trace back for 20 generations to pure scandinavian red dogs.”,

Right, so this provides SOME other lineage in the IRWS-genepole. That’s a fact, whether you like it or not. So a contribution to lower the relatively very high COI-percentage in IRWS.

I know there is a lot of opposition against bringing in red setters in the IRWS not only in Ireland itself but as well outside, especially by fanciers of Irish red setters. That was documented under more in one of Anns posts concerning the Secret/Whisper-scene (red x rw) dealing with fear for “contamination” of the red setter genepole.

As I know you are not only an expert in Scandinavian lines but on Sulhamstead lineage as well, it might be good to remind you there is quite a lot of Sulhamstead lineage behind the IRWS and IRS working/show genepoles. So as well much white.

For example AmFCH Sulhamstead Norse d’Or coming from Scandinavian lines, main forefather of American working reds had a BIG white blaze. And Menaifrons O’Moy figure prominently in postwar Sulhamsteads pedigrees. That kennel was maybe the biggest pole of white on red, even shower of hails. So I think you should make nuances in your post concerning the “pure red Irish setters for twenty generations”.

As for all the information you ask on the scene around a decade ago (plans of Irish fanciers to import working red Irish setters from Denmark) yes it would be worthwhile to dive all details up again. Time fails here – I do remember a talk on a party eleven (!) years ago with a guy in Denmark and he was not young so apparently another one than your person. But lets stick to the fact, that these plans were in and were confirmed, that’s relevant for posts in this topic. I know of no recent plans so let’s stick to now.

By the way there are rumours of Irish people very interested in the French genepole now, a recent dogmagazine there said on the frontpage “L’Irlande dit oui a Urtis”.

Ann – I admire the health monitoring scene in the UK. Still with all advantages this scene has, it has as well disadvantages. When you (think) you know for about everything and for that reason try to keep the scene “pure” (which it never was of course) you risk throwing away the child with the bathwater.

Take for example your alarming high coefficient of inbreeding. Contrary to the Irish red setter it may not yet have lead to big problems, but in a nutshell more population geneticists will tell you it is waiting around the corner. You can test for ten diseases, but what about all the other genes????

I understand that you want to know lots more on a lot where this topic is concerned, but it looks internal frictions in the IRWS-scene frustrate open communications. That’s not my problem. Personally I don’t understand why you do not look for many more Harry’s yourself and let them undergo all tests or make owners do that, but maybe or logic differs?