Always great to see a shower of hail diving up again.
Hartsbourne Flame is umpteen times behind nearly all UK/USA lines, so a key-bitch. She's also present in working lines. The thirties is incorrect, it's the fourties. All info in Irish Times was republished in Irish Decider by Jean Plummer, she's on this list.
This topic started with remarks of under more Ursula on the white as seen on pups in my video. Although nearly all of the white was within the Irish (so FCI-) standard. It makes me smile to know Ursula's Irish are probably also descending from this bitch.
This pattern of white is NOT in the standard, although it is by nearly all breed experts of her time seen as very typical for the breed, not to be penalized but praised. ..
The shower of hail is more or less our vanished variety.... So what would YOU do when it dives up again?
Frances said,>> As for the colour, well seems not many of you 'played conkers' as kids, otherwise you'd all know what a true chestnut colour is. And it is a deep dark red!
Sorry but I don't know what conkers' is? I always thought chestnut was the lighter coloring , not the dark red. Interesting. I think of the field Irish Settes as Chestnut coloring, or brown, which I don't care for.
Give me a dark coated Irish Setter anytime. If I have a light colored bitch, I want her bred to a dark red stud dog.
Breed color names are funny... just like "Liver" in Springers is different from "Liver" in dalmatians and ES. And the Springers "Liver" would be "Chocolate" in labs.
Chestnuts are indeed dark (with shading and highlights, just like our setters), but anyone involved in horses would consider the word to mean coppery. The darker red horse is known as a Bay.
This is a Chestnut: Click here: Image:Chestnut.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is a chestnut coloured horse (I've seen them MUCH lighter).: Click here: Image:Pottok2.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have noticed when registering a dog, a choice given of red, chestnut or mahogany, which implies that chestnut and mahogany are different.
Like Loma, I quite prefer them dark.
I have come across the mention of "brown" setters here. I have to admit that I dont recall ever seeing a brown setter...? The field-type seem to be more orange in colour...but brown?
Also from the start in setters I have thought about that chestnut-colour. Looking at a chestnut, you will see that it actually comes in very many shades...from deep orange to very dark reddish brown.
I feel I do have a grip of what the colour should be...its the brown that baffles me. Perhaps everybody has seen them except me...:-))))
I agree that the colour chestnut comes in different shades, but they are all still chestnut(and correct) Orange dogs also are seen which is incorrect, and I have seen one or two brown dogs(so dark that there is no red and no lustre or sheen!!) but very few of these exist thank goodness!!!! Most US dogs I have seen are chestnut(perhaps the term "mahogony"is what we consider to be the darker chestnut??)
If you don't want to talk with words only, check a copy of A Survey of Early Setters. The earliest painting of a red setter (with white) in it is by Anthony van Dijck 1634.
As for mahogany diving up in the American standard not FCI/UK, a bitch from French Park setters is described in the Survey as ALMOST mahogany. French park setters were the first nearly all red in Ireland, 18th century.
Thompson, describes commenting the AKC standard a "magnificent mahogany red" and "rich golden chestnut". (the New Irish Setter). Maybe theres a key just like in Joans description of the horses.
I agree with what Carmel describes about too dark. According to beeders of the past it lead to what they called "brownish". Thats why they preferred the ligher shade, by some described as "yellowish" or "orange" but not by them.....
Ursula says "...hopeless - trying to talk about colour with WORDS only"
I dug up an old book (thanks to this site!) and would like to share this, taken from 'The Irish Setter - It's history and training, by L.E. Naylor, 1932:
The writer 'Idstone' said the following of the famous Irish Setter 'Plunket':
"The Rev. Mr. Macdona's Plunket is a high ranger, quick in his turn, light in his gallop, with a thorough command of his actions, enabling him to pull up and finish in style. He is narrow in front with a capital forehead, a fine lean head, a full hazel eye, a large liver nose and nostrils which expand when they catch the wind. He has the long, tapering neck, the broad back, the ragged hips, the strong hind quarters, the firm, small foot, the long muscular thighs of the genuine Irish Setter, suitable for the rough sporting of his native Ireland, or the Scotch mountains and granite boulders, and though not of that rich red which you see on a thoroughbred chestnut, as, in the highest possible condition, he takes his canter before the stand at Epsom, on a May morning in the sun, or of the stain of the red beech leaves in an early autumn, or the burnt sienna-like tint of an old Scotch fir or of that deep red ochre sand which you come upon fresh turned up in some Berkshire land (and not one of these illustrations gives a thorough notion of the Irish Setter red, as I could desire to give it), you have in him and his class, the quality, the pace, endurance and style which, to my mind are to be obtained in few others of what I consider the best dogs for the moor and gun"
Boy I'd say.............what's that about Hazel eyes.................we would refer that to be a lighter eye and I prefer my dogs to not only have dark, almost black, eyes, with dark eyeliner around them.
I am new here and first I want to say HELLO to everyone.
This is very interesting topic, because I have a red setter with lots of white hair. You can see his picture in my photoalbum.
He has a big white mark on his chest and lots of white hair on his ears, ribs and tail. I don't think that he is shower of hail - dog, but sometimes I think that he might be red and white setter... ;-) Or what do You think?
So, to answer to your question (White on a red setter: Hate it or love it?) I love it, specially when the white is on the chest! Just Love It !!