Littersize

[ursula wilby]

Looking through the photographs on this site, I have seen plenty of large litters, and of course the irish setter normally has large litters. I would like to hear other breeders tell me how they feel about large litters and if there is some culling (I think thats the correct word...I hope it is) of healthy puppies. A few years after I started breeding, I got a litter of 17. I took the litter down to 10 straight away (it was the first litter of that particular bitch and I just thought this was way over the top). She then produced another puppy so the litter ended up being 11 puppies. Plenty of breeders told me I had done the wrong thing and should have let nature take its course. Well I did next time and ended up with 16 puppies. I was fortunate enough that I had another bitch having a false pregnancy at the time with plenty of milk so she took over six of the puppies and all of these grew in to healthy dogs. But that particular excersise taught me never to keep more than a "normal" size litter. My puppies are reared in the house and I normally have no more than one litter a year. I know all my puppies well and they are all housetrained and also trained to respond to a whistle. I put a lot of work into getting the puppies used to dishwashers, vaccumcleaners etc. With 16 puppies, I lost all that contact. It became a matter of feeding, cleaning and falling in to bed at night. All puppies looking alike is bad enough with a litter of 10. With a litter of 16 they just became a mass of milling puppies and I felt I lost out on the important part (for me). The getting to know each puppy as an individual. To recognise each puppies needs. Since then I take each liter down to a size of 10. Mind you, if they are 11 I dont do anything, but never again those huge litters for me! I have (amongst others) come across quite a few stud-dog owners that are NOT happy about this, but I feel that that mostly stems from the fact that they are getting paid per puppy.
So how do you feel about this?
Taking life?
Giving each puppy a better chance?
Ill go for the latter, but I can see the point in both sides.
PS. My largest litter to date has been 18 puppies born.

[Susan Stone]

I think there are two different issues: one is the physical health of mother & pups, the other is the fact that it is just impossible to correctly socialise a large litter of 14+ pups! So unless you have a good crowd of friends prepared to help you day & night (and not just come round for a cuppa & admire the babies), culling the weakest would be to the benefit to the surviving pups. This is not an egoistic point of view of the breeder not being prepared to give all her time and energy, but a matter of being realistic and of taking full responsibilty for the litter you have chosen to breed.
Thankfully I have never had to make this decision, although I have had to put pups to sleep for health reasons and I know it is not easy.
Maybe once again this is where World War III starts....? just joking... all are free to their own opinion

[Loma I. Clark]

Its true, its a situation where you have to be there. Largest litters I've whelped was 10 and that was plenty. I've had to put puppies down that had a defect and that was so difficult but to put down a healthy puppy would cause me so much pain. In my last litter the 10th puppy whelped was a still born and the bitch kept checking me for it and trying to follow me to find out where it went.

She had nine healthy puppies to tend but she was looking for that last one. Can she count.....? I had one litter where the mom kept hiding one little girl puppy under the bed.........that puppy was finally put to sleep at 3 weeks of age because she was blind and deaf...........Did she know there was something wrong at birth? Guess so.

We just do the best we can.................wouldn't the Animal Rights people have a field day with this discussion?

Loma, USA

[kim lamontagne]

About 3 years ago I had a litter of 17. Largest I've ever had. The suggestion was made to me by someone to pick the healthiest, biggest and strongest and cull the rest. I couldn't do that. I also didn't go to heroic stretches to "keep" puppies going. You do have to figure that mother nature steps in and sometimes there are reasons for things. I did tube feed the smaller ones and helped the mom as best we could, I was lucky, she was a good mom. I did lose one, she was one that was always a weak nurser and tube feeding just wasn't enough. I do see why people think of culling a large litter, I wouldn't blame someone for doing it. I just don't see myself being able to. Hard choices, big litters are not necessarily a blessing.

[Pauliina Artiola]

I´ve had big litters and as a matter of fact my first litter was of 21 pups.
Three of them were weak from the beginning and of those 18 we ended up putting 3 more down.
So 15 was the heads that left from the vet`s - 6 to foster mum and 9 came back with their real mum.
People told me that I was crazy and why didn`t I just put the tiniest away. I couldn`t do so cause they were absolutely vital. And what happened was that the puppies started to fade. One after another. Nobody could do anything or tell what was wrong and why did the pups die - until 2of the pups were opened and the result was that their lungs weren`t ready. So I lost ALL except for one of those big puppies - those big who moved the most and needed their lungs the most. If I had put the smaller pups down...well, propably ended having no pups at all. Six pups are now 5 years old, healthy and strong. No sign of their dramatic first steps.

Two years ago I had a litter of 14 out of frozen sperm. That was the easiest litter I`ve seen. Everything went so well from the very beginning. The bitch took perfectly good care of every single puppy. I didn`t have to mix into anything she did. Those puppies are now very social young dogs with lovely temper and health. I did spend all of my time with them and I had help with them. If it was usual here to keep the pups home until 12 wks of age I would understand the concern of socialisation. But our pups leave to their new homes at 7 to 8 weeks - just the time when they begin to need more and more. Of course they demand a lot until then but I couldn`t see myself managing with 14 pups of nearly 12 weeks....

[Henk ten Klooster]

Its often the smallest being much more intelligent growing into the "biggest" (I mean overall), is my analysis after having followed so many litters in half a century time. Especially in intelligence. Thats the one you could kill.

Another kind of culling done for more than a century is the most stupid of them all: on the basis of white!!!!! That way complete histories, centuries old but not much written down, were destroyed. Thats how breeders seeked and destroyed the maybe eldest variety of red setters: the shower of hail!!!!

Now theres two sisters here from the last litter of thirteen -one the biggest due to bonecancer of the owner back for a while and one the smallest-. They do not differ much , both in height & weight! Grown up with the same food, one year old. Best overall (conformation and work): the smallest.

Personnally I do not like using frozen sperm -although theres probably worlds best in working in Italy in the freezer. In my eyes, a natural mating is a natural good start. Refusal is nature - just accept. And no helping, no is no.

As for size of litter - one mating does not stop huge littersizes but makes chance of it smaller. Bitches can have more "hits" in one litter, looks to me logics for a conclusion: just one is enough.

Henk ten Klooster.

[Pauliina Artiola]

" Personnally I do not like using frozen sperm -although theres probably worlds best in working in Italy in the freezer. In my eyes, a natural mating is a natural good start. Refusal is nature - just accept. And no helping, no is no."

This could be one other topic but as it is said here - well, have to comment.
I do agree that the dogs should be able to mate themselves. But using frozen is just a way to get something from far away when the natural tie is impossible to arrange. Everytime breeders using chilled/frozen semen it is not about refusal; it`s about distance.

[ursula wilby]

The swedish Kennelclub allows no delivery of puppies under the age of 8 weeks. And that actually means not a single day before! Normally they stay on a bit longer than that. And yes, litters vary in how things go.
I can just say that the bitches I had with these huge litters lost a lot of weight in the last two-three weeks due to the fact that there was just no room for any food. It was all taken up by the puppies. It did not matter how often I fed them and how small the meals were. If the puppies are a fair size, there just IS not much room left for food. So you are starting out with a "weaker" bitch to begin with.
My recent litters have been nowhere near the number but also nowhere near the weight/puppy of those huge litters. Easier for the bitch in every way...and the breeder. As long as the puppies are livley I dont care about size. So far they have never grown up being small adults...and I do agree with Kim, big litters are not necessarily a blessing. They are certainly not to me.
I know plenty of breeders that may have two - three litters at the same time adding up to about 30 puppies. All these puppies are kept clean, fed, socialised when it comes to people and looked after...but that is where it ends.

It does not with me.

Perhaps as I said before, Im putting too much in to it? Perhaps I would not have to take each puppy seperatly from the age of six weeks, test how he/she reacts to differant noises and new areas? And let it get used to tackle things on its own? Perhaps I am overdoing it by training them to come as soon as I use the whistle and perhaps there would be no need to housetrain at all?
Perhaps by doing all these things with each puppy it is only natural that 10 is about the limit? And perhaps any minute now the shit is going to hit the fan and I can see myself being at the receiving end...:-) Perhaps I should learn to keep my mouth shut? And perhaps not say exactly what I feel?

Ursula

[Susan Stone]

Great! Keep at it, Ursula - it would be so boring if everyone kept their mouth shut;-))
Swiss KC requires pups to be kept until 9 weeks of age. I'd normally keep them a little longer for my own socialising, all depending upon the competence/knowledge of the new owner...
Susan

[Laura Kolbach]

I've never bred a litter, so I don't want to comment on this topic :) I've raised 2 litters for my friends, one Irish (8 I think, have to check) and one German shorthair litter (5), this is mainly all the experience I have, beside looking at pups at breeders :-). I hope that Danka is going to have a 'normal' sized litter - whatever normal means :-)

One comment about artificial insemination: in some countries it is forbidden to do it at the bitch's first mating. By this she has to "prove" that she is able to get pregnant in a natural way. This applies to fresh, frozen and chilled sperm. Meaning also that if the dog in not willing to do his job, you can't take the stuff from him and put it into the bitch...