Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Christiane Lohmann]

nono noooooooo, you misunderstood me !
Sorry for my bad english.
It was in my answer to Lar Quinn and I was asking him, what HE would regard as important to identify a breed, as he was talking only about field talents.
I gave the example of american redsetters and would like to hear, if Lar would be happy with them being the 'true' Irish Setters of today.
And quoting that "color is not important", was me playing devils advocat;-)))
I am wellknown purist ! Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly enough.

About our aim in breeding, we had your aspects again and again over the years in Germany. We want the whole bundle in an Irish Red Setter. A healthy, happy active dog. With brains and all instincts. A gundog living with families. Intelligent and friendly with good nerves. Not more and not less.

Since a junior trial with run, find, point has to be passed, we have a big increase of people, who are bitten by the bug. In the beginning it was regarded as a big hurdle and not necessary for the breed, as - like you said - most dogs end as coach potatoes;-) (ironic smile on)
But nowadays everybody who has passed such first trial for better or worse, is extremely proud of it, proud of themself and their dog and that they have experienced something very true to the nature of the dogs. And they seldom stop after the first trial.
And it does not matter, if they have show dogs or trialers or mixes of both. Only very few dogs have a total lack of instinct. Most of them are easily trained and learn fast. But this is a different topic.
Fact is, that IS in Germany have made a quantums leap in numbers on trials during the last 40 years.

I am afraid that hunting instincts might be deleted in order to make IS easier to handle for petlovers. And hunting instincts is to me NOT a crazy roadrunner, who drives me mad all day long ! Hunting instincts is a wellbalanced dog, who knows when to relax and when to be ready to work.

Can we now pleeeeaaaase continue in german ?

[Cheryl Gorey]

Christina and Camilla, your English is just great. I don't have another language and so I couldn't even read, let alone contribute, so thank-you both. Please keep the conversation in English. I have enjoyed reading the whole discussion. cheers from down under.

[Cheryl Gorey]

Hi Henk, I enjoyed reading your article on Ailean. She was obviously a very special dog and started a lifetime passion! I read the Derrycarne article, but would have loved to have read more about her Setters. Do you have any other articles with more about the Derrycarne dogs? cheers from down under

[Henk ten Klooster]

Thanks! It was a youth love and you never forget those. She was adventure. And yes she started a life time passion handicapped by lack of time due to workload. But I still have her descendants.

Wim van Gemert wrote in the 1975 jubilee number ISCN on her mother Derrycarne Harp (quick translation) "There were in the Netherlands not many combination possibilities to built something great on this. But who knows someone one day will succeed in that with descendants of this beautiful dog."

No, I did not come across more articles on Derrycarne dogs, I was surprised to see that neither the working side or the show side gave their breeder in books the place she deserves.

In working all the winningest from the main direct tale male line descend from Derrycarne Uiscebeata, it is hardly known shower of hail Hartsbourne Flame is behind nearly all nowadays Irish setters all activitities and was a sister to her IRCH Derrycarne Martini.

It was by chance, that I came across this article in an Irish daily on the internet. Maybe Irish members here can tell us why?

[eva ciechonska]

Christine, I didn't say most dogs end up as coach potatoes because the definition of that is a lazy, pampered pooch.
Unless you are born into field trialing or showing most people start with a pet and develop the interest in one direction or another. You say that you fear the hunting instinct will be deleted to make the Irish easier to handle for pet lovers but agree that a healthy balanced, good tempered dog who knows when to relax and when to be ready for work is of paramount importance, and that is right. But while we argue and debate the finer points of the Irish the pet owner takes on the surplus of what we produce without question and cannot be disregarded. Many breeders prefer to sell to pet homes because they know the dog will never get passed on if it doesn't make the grade in either field and will be well looked after for the rest of it's life.
Could someone answer my question on what FT dogs do when they are not being worked please as I keep getting asked this question and I would like to give an accurate answer.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Could someone answer my question on what FT dogs do when they are not being worked

Here they are cherished by the family in the house (five kids) and a change system for four: half in the house others kennelled, changed regulary. The eldest nearly always in/around house.

Over a year: January, hunting season, February&March training season, March&April few field trials, May, June, July companion season only, August, September some fts & training, October, November December hunting season. Summer could be filled apart from holidays with some shows, elder ones for allround hunting activities. Means most of their time they are companions.

The system is comparable to working cultures (that I know) in Scandinavia and France. Other systems? I've read one fine article on working Irish setters all of the year.

[Susan Stone]

I've just added a video of field training on the yorkshire moors... and it is proof of the fact that a solid red hunting dog is unpractical on a misty day;-))
I can easily believe that 'fashion' was the main reason for breeding solid red dogs from the original irish r&w.

[eva ciechonska]

Henk and Iar, thanks for the response, it is nice to know that they are companion dogs as well.....I will pass the information on.
Susan, I had always understood that a solid red hunting dog would be less practical in certain conditions and you have just confirmed that. You can see how difficult it can be, especially in the autumn. My dogs become almost invisible in the bracken. I must go back to my books and refresh my memory (not as good as it used to be) with the reasons behind the evolvement of the pure red or maybe, for the benefit of the newer members on this site you or Henk could provide the info (me being lazy).
Interesting Henk mentioning 'shower of hail' as it still crops up. There is a young bitch at the moment who is successfully being shown with it. Interesting also that 'shower of hail' isn't mentioned in the standard under coat colour.........only "white on chest, throat chin or toes, or small star on forehead or a narrow streak or blaze on nose or face not to disqualify."

[Melinda Auld]

I would love to see a photo of her, Eva, if you have one! (Sorry for OT)

[Henk ten Klooster]

Eva theres a shower of hail special here if you like I can scan it and attach it like Aileans story. Needs some time to find it. I join Melinda's request. You are correct, shower of hail is in no standard - red/red&w. As for division, most recent mentioning is in a Dutch huntingdogsmagazine, the interviewed trialer saying that division was bare nonsense The other quote was few things have harmed the breed so much as that division.

[Henk ten Klooster]

The Shower of Hail story, focusing on Hartsbourne Flame is attached. Our extinct or not variety of Irish setters, they still seem to dive up regularly worldwide. Seems a remembrance to Maureen Mc Keever & a lot of breed history vanishing from our memories. Enjoy!

[Melinda Auld]

Fascinating article, Henk. Thanks so much for sharing it!