Genetics...

[Susan Stone]

I thought it might be a good idea to start of discussion forum about genetics. Please feel free to add links that may be helpful for members.

I found the following site helpful:http://www.canine-genetics.com/Genetics.htm

and the one Kirsty Williamson found http://www.dogstuff.info/playing_coi_sharp.html


Attached is also the article by J. Gubbels from the Netherlands - thank you Leen for sending it to me.

[Dee Rance]

Thanks Susan.....Perhaps I didn't put it clearly, I thought that I had said something to that effect, when I said about the stud dog owner and the bitch's owner not being kennel blind, sorry, (you know what thought did) I should be more careful as to how I put things.
I will qualify what I meant....when you are a stud dog owner, you should be aware of the genetic, or otherwise, problems that your dog is throwing, or connected with....Bloat, entropian, (don't know how to spell that) Epilepsy to name but three, and likewise you as the birch's owner, you should hopefully be aware of problems that may have occurred with either your bitch or her close relatives, this is what I meant by ''you must know what your stock is like'' and ''don't be kennel blind'' sorry I knew what I was saying, unfortunately no one else did.....I hope that I have now clarified my last comment, but I do still say that an EYE is still needed, but with ALL the accompanied, relevant genetic information, etc, that we have at the moment....

[Frances McKimm]

Well said Susan
Having healthy dogs just isn't enough;
How do you know if those healthy dogs have somewhere behind dogs who gave, epilepsy,MO, bloat, entropian,ectropian, heart problems,testicule,teeth, pancreas problems????
If your dog carries any one of these problems in his genes and that dog mates a bitch,which unknowingly carries also one of these problems in her genes, then there is a chance of it coming out in the pups, and they either develop the ailment or pass it on again to their progeny
Do you know which dog gave epilepsy in the 60's??? or M.O, or swimmers as they were called in those days; Some of the dogs we know about but not all; it was all hush hush then;
If pups died in a litter, did anyone wonder why? No, it was the survival of the fittest, very well, but the others probably carried that disease;
Thankfully now with modern technology many problems can be avoided but not all;
With a low COI there is 'Less' risk but still studies must be made of the pedigrees and information taken on the dogs behind them, to try and 'Help Luck' on its way;
This is why also genetics are so very important to us and the more we learn, test and practise it there is hope for 'healthy gene' dogs; And we must work together towards this as much as possible;

[Leen]

Spot on, well said Frances.

[ursula wilby]

I think, unfortunatly, that there is no dog alive that is totally free of all the above.
If we truly think that we could find a dog that in its background has NO connection with MO, epilepsy, teeth-problems, heart etc we are living in a dreamworld.

Same goes for people...

[Susan Stone]

Quite right, it will be impossible to avoid ALL deleterious genes - even with the most sophisticated DNA tests.
This brings us back to the reason why we should strive for genetic diversity and try to reduce the inbreeding coefficient in our breeding programmes.

[Susan Stone]

quote: "it's always genetics and the breeder to blame"

No, it is not a matter of putting the blame on anyone, nor on any one dog. As you quite rightly say it is finding a way to balance all the information gained and come to an informed decision when planning a litter. Every dog and bitch has good and bad in it's genetic make up. That is the law of nature. If however I as a breeder come to the conclusion that the problem I have encountered is of genetic origin and I decide to ignore the issue, then I am acting in a way that is harmful to the breed.

The problem with popular sires is not that they 'in themselves' are necessarily harmful to the breed, after all, they are being used because breeders expect the sire to pass on his exceptional qualities... the problem is the overuse of a small number of dogs will lead to a bottle neck in the breed - with all the problems that follow.

In an issue of Dog World (Ja 09) various breed clubs were asked about the health of their breed. What struck me was how many answers began with 'in comparison to others, ours is a very healthy breed...' only to carry on further down the line saying what various problems are known to be breed specific problems...

[Astrid Landsaat]

I found something about epilepsy: http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/03_02/canine_epilepsy.shtml

Astrid.

[Astrid Landsaat]

And more: http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/index.html (Click on research) Is our breed really healthy?

Astrid.

[Susan Stone]

Thank you for these links Astrid. I think epilepsy is probably one of the most dreadful diseases to experience in your dog.

[Astrid Landsaat]

I also have some statistics from the Dutch Irish setter club. 2,8 % of the Dutch setters suffer from epilepsy. Do you really think that's healthy? The average in all breeds is 0,5 to 1 %. Idiopathic epilepsy is probably the worst disease and everything possible (DNA research) should be done to ban epilepsy out of our breed.
Have you ever owned a dog suffering from this disease? I am an owner and I can tell you, it changes your live completely! Read her story on her website: http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-...

Astrid.

[Henk ten Klooster]

The Dutch club states there is a direct relation between coefficient of inbreeding (coi) and epilepsy. That was the reason to forbid combinations above 5% over ten generations (source website ISCN). The percentage in Irish setters eight years was around 8 (source health inquiry published March 2009).

Astrids page on Hyves on epilepsy of her Irish setter http://epilepsiebijhonden.hyves.nl provides a diary, reactions and a short movie of a (mild) attack. It may be an eyeopener for people writing about "being blindfolded".

Not sure what Lauwers Daktyle means by "European lines". Checking Lena's database on concerned pedigrees reveals Astrids Irish setter and two direct relatives suffering from epilepsy descend from mainstream UK showbreeding. It would be intresting to know their coi (Leen???).

Maybe blindness for facts is another problem to deal with....

[Leen]

The major health risk in pure bred dogs, not just Irish setters, has nothing to do with COI, genetics, diversity or statistics. It's enviromental and mental and is called DENIAL.
Tried to calculate that but the program gave an "ERROR". So it's Obvious a waste of time.