Irish Red & White Setters

Comment by Christina Phillips on May 31, 2008 at 5:24pm

Hello Terry,
I never questioned Irelands duty and commitment in preserving the breed and I was aware that way back when, it was done, breeding occasionally back to Irish Red Setters, did they ever make use of parti colored IS born and included them into the IRWS gene pool ?????
The last major outcross program brought CLAD and PPC, what sort of safe guards will be in place to avoid new issues that could be brought in.
How many IRWS on average are imported back to Ireland for breed diversity etc.....or has it been pretty much just local dogs.....
I will agree with you in that our breed diversity here could go fast when rankings go up and everyone wants to breed to the top dogs:-((
Some experts recommend to make use of as many dogs from a litter as possible [as long as they pass health clearances]................
Christina

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on June 1, 2008 at 12:39pm

"did they ever make use of parti colored IS born and included them into the IRWS gene pool ?????"

Yes, John Kerr in the UK bred red and whites from two red parents in at least three litters in the 1970's, Rushfield Great Lady, Rushfield Smudge I and Rushfield Jill were all red and whites with two red parents. The KC at that time still had a B register and John was able to register the red and white puppies as IRWS on the B register, they got full registration in 1979. This was perfectly legal . Terry can probably remember some more in Ireland.
"The last major outcross program brought CLAD and PPC, what sort of safe guards will be in place to avoid new issues that could be brought in.?"

Not sure what you mean by this? The last outcross programme started in 1989, after the CLAD litters had been born in the UK and CLAD was recognised in the breed. PPC was recognised in the breed in the UK in the early 90's. Ireland has not had any CLAD litters and PPC doesnt seem to be a problem there either. Presumably the genes for both had been around but only surfaced with close line breeding on too few dogs in the early years in the UK? Terry has already said that if there were another outcross programme any red dogs that would be used would be subject to all the same health checks as the IRWS, and the breeding stock in Ireland now has a pretty comprehensive screening programme
"How many IRWS on average are imported back to Ireland for breed diversity etc.....or has it been pretty much just local dogs....."
Jim Sheridan imported Rushfield dogs from John Kerr in Scotland, and has also imported from Holland. Isabel Somerfield exported IRWS from the UK to Ireland, David Byrne and Terry O'Leary have both owned Bawnrhus, and Terry imported a bitch from France, and I dont think its a secret that he is about to import another IRWS with some older and less usual breeding behind it . I have sent eight IRWS over to Ireland ,north and south, of whom three have been bred from, and Ann Miller (Mizen) from Co Cork came over to Scotland to use one of my dogs as a stud. I can think of three people from the UK who moved to Ireland to live with their IRWS and whose dogs have become part of the Irish gene pool .The McAleer's in Belfast have an Anjuli dog from Carol Pipe in Scotland. There is actually good awareness nowadays in Ireland of the need to make best use of the international gene pool beyond the national boundaries
Margaret

Comment by Christina Phillips on June 1, 2008 at 7:56pm

Thanks Margaret for all the info. I don't consider the 1989 outcorss the major, was talking about the revival that took place over many years...
I wasn't really trying to point fingers in regards to CLAD, since it also is present in IS, I thought it was brought in from the revival days..
IS carry PRA and possibly Epi, besides many others, so how could IRWS specific test be of help? Unless of course Irish Red Setters in Ireland are lucky and are not afflicted....
Not sure if I can blame close breeding/line breed for all evils, don't matter how close or how far apart they are when you deal with dominate genes...and at times we should thank close breeding for all the life threatening issues that came about, otherwise we would be gambling with each breeding even with least related....
To get a better perspective, how many IRWS are in Ireland at the moment, ???

Christina

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on June 2, 2008 at 3:08am

You wrote "The last major outcross program brought CLAD and PPC". What do you base that on?
Yes, we know now that CLAD is in red Irish Setters, but have you any evidence that it wasnt in the few red and whites before the revival in the seventies? The reds that were used in the revival had shared ancestry with the red and whites, thats why they were used
PPC was found in IRWS in the UK in the 1990s, but curiously I cant find any references to PPC in red Irish Setters? So why do you think it came into IRWS from the 1970's outcrosses
Very little PPC has been found in Irish bred dogs, compared with the UK stock. There is one line down from Snow King of Tormore , a son of Harlequin, which has a few cases of PPC, and another line down from a mating the Canon did with a UK dog Fieldtop Latest Edition (another Harlequin descendant) which has also produced a few cases of PPC. Otherwise PPC hasnt shown up in the working Irish dogs, which I suspect probably has something to do with them not having Harlequin (or very little Harlequin) in their pedigrees. In contrast the UK dogs have Harlequin as the bottleneck in their pedigrees, and he can occur 20 - 30 times in some UK pedigrees. Where PPC came from further back from Harlequin is difficult to guess. Have you any ideas?
Margaret

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on June 2, 2008 at 3:28am

Correction, Snow King of Tormore was a grandson of Harlequin, also had Harlequin on the other side of his pedigree

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on June 2, 2008 at 3:51am

"To get a better perspective, how many IRWS are in Ireland at the moment, ???"

The IKC doesnt publish figures of registrations. For the IRWS bred in N.Ireland, some are registered in the UK, some in Ireland, which complicates things.
There could be around 500 IRWS in Ireland, maybe more, guessing from the number of known litters . Almost all of these are primarily working bred, and predominantly Craigrua/Rushfield breeding. Very few IRWS are shown in Ireland
The problem with importing from Europe is that the serious working dogs in Europe are also mostly from Craigrua/Rushfield breeding and a little Lougherne, so bringing them back doesnt bring in different lines
There are a few dogs in Sweden from older Irish breeding, and a few in Central Europe who are descendants of Rushfield Smudge.
And in Holland there are Gerard Mirck's red and whites, from Moanruad breeding through Harry

Comment by Christina Phillips on June 2, 2008 at 9:24am

PPC was found in IRWS in the UK in the 1990s, but curiously I cant find any references to PPC in red Irish Setters? So why do you think it came into IRWS from the 1970's outcrosses
Very little PPC has been found in Irish bred dogs, compared with the UK stock. There is one line down from Snow King of Tormore , a son of Harlequin, which has a few cases of PPC, and another line down from a mating the Canon did with a UK dog Fieldtop Latest Edition (another Harlequin descendant) which has also produced a few cases of PPC. Otherwise PPC hasnt shown up in the working Irish dogs, which I suspect probably has something to do with them not having Harlequin (or very little Harlequin) in their pedigrees. In contrast the UK dogs have Harlequin as the bottleneck in their pedigrees, and he can occur 20 - 30 times in some UK pedigrees. Where PPC came from further back from Harlequin is difficult to guess. Have you any ideas?>>>>>>>>>>>
Margaret,
of course you are correct that no way of knowing if we did not have a few CLAD carriers in IRWS before the revival program ....and possibly the same for PPC and it being a dominate it only takes one dog...
If Harlequin is blamed, taking a close look at parents and grand parents ..........., be my move if I was to track a health issue.
Christina

Comment by Christina Phillips on June 2, 2008 at 9:34am

PS. hopefully the DNA test for PPC will become reality soon and both CLAD and PPC should be history.......

Christina

Comment by Silvia Lindner-Rae on July 20, 2008 at 1:08am

Hello!
IRWS dog Chaersiveen Celtic Music, age 10 1/2 months, went into his first show today and finished best junior. He stacked perfectly but running he thought he was a kangaroo. Mrs Doppelreiter thinks he is a very fine dog that needs some ring training before the next show.
We are very proud of the young man.

There were 3 IRWS entered:
dogs:
Chaersiveen Celtic Music in Junior, Limelanes Bolero in Intermediate
and bitches: Limelanes Birdy in Intermediate,
Celt was Best Junior, Bolero CAC, CACIB, BOB and Birdy VG1.
Oberwart is always very difficult: middle of summer and extremely hot insdoors and outdoors.
If you want to see the photos:
http://picasaweb.google.at/arthurthedog1411
Silvia

Comment by Fiorella Mathis on July 28, 2008 at 2:07pm

Fantastic

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