Old map of Ireland showing "Adams and Eves" of Irish setters posted

[Henk ten Klooster]

Setterfanciers interested in history may enjoy a card of old strains of red (and white) setters in Ireland on the website www.Iersesetter.com , home of the Foundation for original setters. Click the English flag and menubar White memories of times goneby. Of - Nederlands- Vlekjes uit een Ver Verleden.

This map shows where main founders of the Irish setter in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were situated before, around or just after start of official registry, shows, field-trials. Most of them played a prominent role in the making of the Irish setter like the socalled French Park Setters of the French family De Freyne (later French). These are nowadays still in direct tail male lines of descent, most show.

The map was made by Dutchman J.A. (Jan) Hesterman probably end twenties last century or beginning thirties. Hesterman played a prominent role in Dutch setterhistory as breeder of O’Callaghans. This together with author/judge/breeder captain G.J. Verweij (Setters en Pointers, Amsterdam 1949). Both continued individually, kennelnames O’Cuchulain (Hesterman) and Of Sutherland (Verweij).

Hesterman was a keen student on early setterhistory. He was an expert on paintings, himself having restorated together with his father the Nachtwacht (Nightwatcher) of Rembrandt van Rijn. In some of his eight generations pedigrees all Irish setters got a color of their direct line of descent. He could trace them right back to the ones mentioned on this card.

The map shows that original red (and white) setters had a lot of color variations varying from shower of hails (small white dots all over the red coat), red and white to nearly complete red. This is why the map is placed on the menu White memories of Times Goneby, focusing on Harry, a red and white born from red parents and his daughter Pallas Green Harriet, the first Dutch bred setter ever to win the title of Irish Field Trial Champion for his owner/trialer Jim Sheridan (Craigrua).

Combining sources like this one makes it possible to trace a tail male main ancestor line currently topping the working scene like French (Urtis) (red) and Harry (red and white from red parents) straight back to Ch Palmerston of whom experts said the line was extinct. In case there are fanciers interested, a follow up with details can be posted.

Henk ten Klooster

[Henk ten Klooster]

If the original setters in Ireland were red and white, the only way to get a solid red dog was to mate a red and white to a solid coloured dog of another breed,and that is probably how the red Irish Setter originated. wrote Margaret Sierakowski.

So can you explain Moanruad Dan (all red) exported to the USA and his sister Int FT Ch Patricia of Killone (red with a lot of white) see pp 112-113 The Irish Red Setter - Ray O'Dwyer. Sired by Waydown Sandy from red and white lines of western Ireland.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Yes, the dam of Patricia of Killone and Moanruad Dan was Rahard Belle (red). One would expect to get red offspring from the mating with Waydown Sandy. And who knows what was really behind Waydown Sandy? The pedigree shows red and white Knockalla dogs (from Cork, not from the West of Ireland)

[Henk ten Klooster]

All red from red&white strains needs a solid colored other dog is what most historians tell.

Now again Moanruad Dan (all red as far as I can see on the picture in O'Dwyers book), he is from red and white lines.The very first red dogs after registry as well, where does a need for a solid colored other dog dive up?

We can discuss Waydown Sandy's pedigree later. There were two: one wrong (Kennel Club) + one according to experts the right one - in direct tail male line back to red and white field trial winning Lord Decider (1920ies).

"West of Ireland red and white setter blood" comes from pp 110 in The Irish Red Setter by Raymond O'Dwyer. Any idea why? He does not discuss red and whites "being outside the remit" of his book. American historian W.C. Thompson tells us why it was used.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Maybe he has some knowledge of what was really behind Waydown Sandy? What is in the recorded pedigree includes Mrs Cuddy's Knockalla IRWS from Co Cork, and behind them the Ballynahinch dogs from County Down. Or maybe he is confusing Ballynahinch, Co Down with Ballynahinch, Co Galway

[Henk ten Klooster]

30 years ago I breed 'one' with a lot of white about him. wrote Dee. Thats interesting Dee, on the Frisco line shower of hails are reported but not so many with a lot of white. In 1954 a litter was born in hte UK (sources: Rasbridge/Leighton-Boyce) tail white from tip of tail to root and large areas of white over loin and haunches, grandparents two sh champions one champion. So apparently white bubbling under even in the most solid red line (In the Frisco line all reds from old Ireland dominate).

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Dee wrote
"Not sure who it was that said, that you can't get Red out of Red and White, surely that is exactly what happened. Selectively breeding from the animals that had the most 'RED' in their coats"

No, the solid reds appeared at the end of the eighteenth century, probably a mix of red and white with a solid coloured dog. From then there on were separate lines in Ireland, some with reds and some with red and whites, and some crossing between them. Around 1880, the solid reds became more fashionable, the red and whites, and reds with a lot of white, disappeared quite quickly. It was more elimination of red and white, than selective breeding for red. Within a decade the red and whites had almost vanished.

[Dee Rance]

I don't think I actually stated the date that this was written down, and I can't remember where I read it, but if you take a trait that you like and keep breeding from animals that have that trait then you will eventually got what you are looking for, I didn't say that it happened spontaneously, it obviously took time, you could say that you can't get a Peek our of a Wolf, but they did......time is the thing.
And the dogs just seemed to suddenly appear so perhaps it was when they got the 'All Red' animal that they started to register the dogs, who knows, but I am sure that selective breeding CAN bring about what you want.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

There were solid red dogs around from the end of the eighteenth century, it wasnt a gradual evolution from red and whites, which is genetically impossible anyway.
What happened was an elimination of red and white dogs, and reds with some white, from breeding, showing and the registries from the 1880s onwards

[Henk ten Klooster]

Leen thats hugely intresting.

Do you have any explanation why for most people diving up of white is a result of hybrid power and why many people see red as prove of purity and why quite a few breed experts state last was only possible because of outcrossing to another breed?

The 1914 description fits in 100% in what you see happening in quite a few generations in Irish setters since red and white days. The white tip of tail -not in the IRSC standard- is seen a lot and quite a few times later in life. The opposite is true for white on IRS pups - it fades sometimes totally but near to always considerably. What is the explanation for that?

[Henk ten Klooster]

This kind of white on red was in dr Stone's Dash' days considered ok.

Dash was the winningest in shows just before Palmerston. It was not ok anymore since making of the conformation standard of the Irish Red Setter Club, just after Palmerstons days.

If you use Allens description delivered by Leen above, Dash is in the group of "more white"", Palmerston in the group of "small amounts of white".

The "orderly fashion" of white that Allen describes, can be seen in a lot of pics/paintings of Irish setters. The breeder of Palmerston, Cecil Moore, considered white on the neck as sign of the best for working...

Interestingly, this white on the neck still dives up, one such whiteneck or is it redneck:-)) is snoring under my computer now.

(reproduced from A Survey of Early Setters, written by Gilbert Leighton-Boyce, London 1985)

[Henk ten Klooster]

I wouldnt regard these long pedigrees too seriously anyway. ., wrote Margaret Sierakowski. I take most debate-stuff serious so your doubts as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong - there are two tail male lines of descent in IRWS - 1) Int FT Ch Ballymac Eagle and 2) Waydown Sandy none of which can be traced to the 19th century.

[Londa Warren]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "tail male lines of descent"? This phrase has been used at least a dozen times in this discussion and I've never heard it before!

Londa