New 'Eye Problem In Irish'

[Dee Rance]

I have been trying to think of a way to post this...I have been banging on, on this site, about breeders and owners, 'putting their hands up' to a ''new problem'' or even a problem that has been around for a while. So I am putting my ''hands up''
Some people will have see the Blog placed by Carol Gill (thank you Carol for posting this) called ''Crufts 2009'' in this blog it states that there is a leaflet supplied by ISAE with reference to a 'new eye problem' in Irish setters. It does not say which lines, or who own the dogs, this problem has been found in..Carol asked me if I knew!! (all three people involved have stated that ''If asked we would not lie'' we would say who we were).
I have one of the 3 ''affected'' dogs, 3 doesn't sound much but when you think that only 7dogs have been tested then this number is quite high.
The dogs have what we think is akin to or is CSNB (Congenital Stationary Night Blindness) which is found in Breards only, at the moment, THIS IS NOT PRA.
The dogs in question have the problem in varying degrees Jas being the worst one affected, she is clinically blind at night.
People have already said that they feel that this comes down a particular line, and named the dog...
PLEASE LETS NOT START SLINGING MUD AT DIFFERENT DOGS, OR ABOUT DIFFERENT BREEDERS. although my bitch and her sister (the other affected bitch) do have many famous dogs, in there lines the THIRD dog has a very different male line, so NO MUD SLINGING PLEASE I am putting this on this site, to get a conversation going, and to see if there are people who have noticed a problem, which I have to say is VERY difficult to see, I have heard of people with totally blind animals that didn't know their dogs were blind, if it happens slowly the dogs adapt to their surroundings, and these, affected dogs, CAN see during the day...
I must reiterate that a breeder CAN NOT legislate against something that they do not know about, and this comes from very diverse lines. If you feel that your dog has any kind of vision problem please ask, where ever you are, this could be a very widespread problem.
Lets now discuss this and see if we can get to the bottom of it ASAP....lets not let it linger and spread through this lovely breed, it isn't PRA, or something painful like Bloat, but it must be very distressing for the animal and I know that it is distressing for the owner involved. We all love this breed or we wouldn't be on this site, and this site is so good to ''get the word out'' and lets see if you can get this eradicated.

[Dee Rance]

Hi there Vivian.
I have just go through saying the same kind of thing on the the other health site here, I think that we all want to help and get a conversation going between people, some may take offence, I personally don't take any, at what you have said, you were quite correct that Donna was great getting this put onto the ISCA the more people that hear about these things the quicker we can get to the bottom of ALL the problems, CSNB Ruptured Aorta HD and all the other problems that are occurring. We all need to talk, talking is the only way forward, at this moment in time, perhaps when we talk to others they may know someone who knows something that may have the answer. But if we hadn't asked we may never have known.
So please don't worry keep talking, and please don't think that I am anything out of the ordinary, perhaps I just have a different way of dealing with thing, I am afraid, I talk about them....and personally I could talk for Scotland...;0))

[Susan Stone]

I love that expression, Dee! So go on, talking for Scotland:-))))

My copy of the ISAE Annuel Review 2008 came yesterday, together with the information leaflet on SNB.
I was very pleased to read the chairman's report, especially his words on eradication of breed threatening conditions: quote "we cannot afford a moment of complacency" end quote.
I can only hope support from breeders and owners will be forthcoming and that funds will be available. The ISAE does have a health fund and I am sure contributions would be apreciated.

[Dee Rance]

So don't get me started again!!!! Oh dear.....Glad you got your ISAE Annual Review, they always make interesting reading, I think that it is correct, the 'not getting complacent', I think complacency is one of the things that makes these kind of things get a hold of a breed, it is somewhat of the NIMBY type of thought. Its OK to condemn people who have breed something that has a 'problem' but it is not OK to try and help to get to the bottom of it, this is the thing that I have been trying to say all along, with any of these problems. There can never be any blame, for breeding a problem like this, or any other of the new problems, because it wasn't known about...
The main thing is that we knuckle down and get to the bottom of them. Don't you think...And that is what this site is so good at, helping, and hopefully we can get it all sorted, this and the other problems

[Dee Rance]

I have been away for the weekend and have noticed that Jas is starting to bump into things and can't find me in a strange place, very distressing. I wondered if anyone out there could give any ideas as to where we go from here with this problem...ie how do we find out if there are others out there that have this....I was becoming complacent about her 'blindness' I thought that it wasn't getting any worse, but I now think that it is...ANY SUGGESTIONS????

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

So sorry to hear Dee!

Is this in light envirement also?

[Eduarda De Sousa Pires]

dear Dee
ive just pick up the issue now. as far as i realise youre having a dog that is becoming blind ?
just a few words for you and tomorrow ill try to read all the posts.
a blind dog can live a very happy life. its a bit harder for us then actually it is for them.
they are very easy to train. they learn all the new skills they need very very easy. and as they become a bit more dependet on us they have a bit more of a hear then normal reds do :-)
there are a few sites http://www.blinddogs.com/tips.htm http://www.blinddogs.net/
[e-mail]
and books - http://www.petcarebooks.com/ - Living With Blind Dogs
A Resource Book and Training Guide for the Owners of Blind and Low-Vision Dogs
Includes causes of blindness, pack/behavior issues, training tips, new skills, negotiating the house, yard, and community, toys/games & more.
with good pratical information and easy to follow. i teached artie even to walk as he was afraid to do it and moved like a smaal horse and just a few weeks later one almost couldnt say that he was blind. blind dogs are still normal dogs that cant see thats all. if you need help to train him or to know what to do in the first days ill be glad to help. see artie a rescued blind red setter with PRA at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA6jXB36rJI
:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAqVLj1_4Wc
this was just 2 weeks after i rescued him from a bad shelter.
if you need help please let me know. ill beglad to help you.
B. R.
Eduarda

[lyn hathaway]

eduarda many thanks for putting the you tube threads on .i watched them and he looks really happy.it upset me though because i know sooner rather than later my dear layla is going to be completley blind and i am wondering how i am going to cope .im sure shes going to be better than me, all her other senses have become much stronger and you wouldnt think theres anything wrong with her when shes out in the fields.shes such a happy girl an it just breaks my heart that these beautiful dogs can get such a horrid disease and my layla is one of them.

[Dee Rance]

Hi there Eduarda and Lyn, thank you Eduarda for the links they were very helpful. Artie looks so happy, and when you consider that you haven't had him that long, it just shows what can be done.. Lyn, your Layla is going to be fine, (obviously her eyes can't be fixed and I can't tell you how that makes me feel) I am beginning to learn just how you are feeling, it must be so hard for you not to be able to 'fix' her, to make her better. (Your perfect puppy has a dreadful problem through no fault of anyone.) That is just what I want to do with Jas, make her better, if I had a magic wand I would wave it over all these dogs that we know on this site that have vision problems. Or any other problem. We have to start one dog at a time, one problem at a time. Layla has one advantage over Artie, she will have had you as her 'mum' since she was a puppy, and that is so good for her, like you, Eduarda, and Lyn, and now myself, and the people on this site.... if we can all get together to make people aware of this dreadful complaint, then we must be some way to stopping this, we MUST work to stop these things, not just blindness but some of the other problems this breed has, it is all too easy just to ignore problems like this one, as has been said before, it isn't life threatening, I know that it isn't, but it is so distressing to all concerned. I am hoping, that there are more people out there, that may think of where we can go from now, how we can stop this from getting any worse and affecting a LOT more dogs....?? and their owners.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Dee wrote : >if we can all get together to make people aware of this dreadful complaint, then we must be some way to stopping this, we MUST work to stop these things, not just blindness but some of the other problems this breed hasbr />

Results health report ISCN Irish setters eight years (212 - 101 reactions) published March 2009 document those other problems: castrated/sterilized 27; incontinent 7; epilepsy 8; heartproblems 1; food allergy 1; problems with stomach 4; bloat 5, artrosis 1, tumour 10, died 11. Lineage 99% UK show (same as rest of the world dominated by that scene).

So I agree with you there is more than blindness to cope with. The problem is that a problem of an individual can be due to a huge narrowing of bloodlines the problem of near to all. I haven't seen pedigrees of affected Irish setters in this topic, but guess it would show immediately what dangers are in.... Why don't you publish them here?

The committee of the ISCN forbid a coefficient of inbreeding above 6.25 last year, with huge protests of leading showbreeders, leaving the AGM. This comittee resigns in May this year.

[Frances McKimm]

I agree with you Wilko!
I have arthritis, had a cancer, have hip problems; husband had heart problems and stomach problems;
my father went blind with cateract;
The COI is 0% between meself and husband - so we had 2 'pups' wonder what they have inherited???
Now Henk I do think the COI is a good thing - but not the only thing!
Everything must be taken in perspective;
Just because there is COI 0% does Not mean perfectly healthy dogs;
But for those in doubt and don't know the problems behind the dogs it is a good 'guideline';

[Dee Rance]

Yes me too I have Arthritis and have had Cancer twice, don't have a husband now, but have 'whelped' two, so far they are reasonably healthy. But think what it would be like if our children and grandchildren were mated with us or our husbands, (in my case X husbands) and then their children are mated with the offspring of them, we would be absolutely dying of in droves, and that is what we are doing with these dogs, and they aren't dying, which is a tribute to their resilience, We should be VERY careful as to what we do, and we don't know what is behind these dogs, not for sure, because a gene can go 'rouge' at any time, we who have had Cancer should know that better than anyone, although it is a Cell in the case of Cancer. Although some cancers are hereditary, and we have learnt a lot about that in recent years

[Henk ten Klooster]

Lineage 99% UK show is based on a quick scan of matings in 2008. Correction: a better word is predominantly.

As for your remark >the only solution is NOT to breed with dogs that have a problem or have given problems< this is certainly not applied. Not for bloat, not for epilepsy.

As for working together, right. Maybe an open question for experts on relevant terrains how to secure a healthy future for our breed could be a start.

In my eyes, it is often a conflict of interests blocking healthy cooperation. Open info is a tool for a better future. See what happens here, the most relevant info pedigrees of affected setters, is not provided.

Relevant info would tell in a glimpse dangers of a system predominantly applied –yes or no based on informed decisions- that say John Stud becomes main forefather of all Irish setters all over the world. That’s where things go wrong……