Genetics...

[Susan Stone]

I thought it might be a good idea to start of discussion forum about genetics. Please feel free to add links that may be helpful for members.

I found the following site helpful:http://www.canine-genetics.com/Genetics.htm

and the one Kirsty Williamson found http://www.dogstuff.info/playing_coi_sharp.html


Attached is also the article by J. Gubbels from the Netherlands - thank you Leen for sending it to me.

[Dee Rance]

The problem with the lay persons interpretation on genetics is they don't have a good grasp of it, and they are personally involved.
I personally know very very little, there are some on this sight that THINK that they understand this VERY complex scientific problem really well, and in fact they know absolutely nothing, genetics is numbers, and you have got to have a certain type of brain to work it all out. With reading the above we can get a slight grasp, but we must not put our own interpretation on these things....I am as guilty as the next for that....we can't help it. But a scientist doesn't do that, it is all FACTS, no interpretation, FACTS, Facts and more facts, NO personal feeling on it, that is where we go wrong as lay persons, we are too closely involved, and put our own thought onto a very clinical debate.....I am again guilty of this....we must be honest in our own thoughts..

[Susan Stone]

You are quite right, Dee! I think it helps just for us lay people to realize how very complex the subject is. No simple answers here...

[Dee Rance]

Oh yes perhaps like me you have opened a can of worms I hope that they are genetically clean worms!!!!

[Catherine Carter]

I am planning my next litter at the moment and I have had white nights studying COI and COR and % ....it is quite a daunting task when you start going into it in some details!!!!

[Dee Rance]

Tell me about it, I am in the same position....I also think that the old idea of, somewhat of an out cross, is called for. Nothing to do with genetics or COI but I think it is TIME that we went down this road, and probably you will take all the rest in to fruition at the same time...A very simple attitude to all these things.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Maybe of interest for you is this article on lines/families in the UK, published November 2, 1934 written by W.J. Rasbridge. Near to all of them vanished, leaving only one or two main male lines and just a few females. Some of those vanished families survive in small genepools elsewhere.

[Susan Stone]

Henk, thanks for this interesting article - it is always fascinating to read of the dogs in the past who had / still have a great influence on the breed as we know it today.
Unfortunately scanning has cut off part of the last chapter 'Conclusions arrived at'. But despite the missing sentences it is interesting to note the difference in recommended breeding practice of those bygone days in comparison to today where maintaining genetic diversity is so very important.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Yes even this article made in heydays of so called linebreeding can be interesting.

Most lines mentioned in this article, vanished in the leading UK showgenepool. Elsewhere they do survive. So genetic diversity is possible by retrieving them back.

Some of so called breed specific problems (like epilepsy, bloat) play no role of importance in more genepools outside leading UK show. Look for example at IRWS-health registry.

You are optimistic Susan by stating "maintaining genetic diversity". Because a lot disappeared especially in last three decades. How do you think what still is present can be safeguarded?

[Susan Stone]

I'm not sure, Henk. Do I say I'm optimistic? All I say is 'maintaining genetic diversity is so important'...
But well, maybe I am more optimistic than I was a couple of years ago. Because in these last few months many breed clubs in the UK and people in general are becoming much more aware of the risks of close breeding.

Where to got to? Well I think you gave at least one answer yourself to that question in the
'Popular Sire' discussion in Sept. 07:
quote Henk: "If you want diversity, it is in cultures not so much influenced by UK or USA-showcultures. These are for IRS in dual/ hunting lines in Scandinavia mainly. Especially Norway. The website of the Norwegian club (NISK) is great on extended pedigrees plus facts on descendants. Take your time and enjoy finding out many of said "extinct" families are still present there."

BTW you may be interested to see what I wrote on my website in 2004 about the need to outcross... I trust you understand some german!
see http://www.coppersheen.ch/gesundheit.htm

[Henk ten Klooster]

If you are right - that "many breedclubs in the UK and people in general are becoming much more aware of the risks of close breeding" than after all, all what was written here was not a waste of time... Thats good news. Being a factfinder, waiting for facts first now.... so brave breeders paving new pathways for future.

[Dee Rance]

I agree with that
Intuition is a big part of breeding, knowing what you like...first...then looking at pedigrees, that is the way I have always done this, I don't look at pedigrees first and foremost, I have to like the animal that I am going to use, looking at what he has produced, have they had any problems in their lines, I rely on the owner to let me know, if there is a problem.
There are many good breeders out there,
Then you just keep your fingers crossed that your ''eye'' for a good dog is working, you must know what your stock is like, as well and be honest with yourself, as to any problems your dog has, not just genetic problems, you are trying to improve what you have, so first and foremost you must not be kennel blind.
Genetics has its place in breeding, but you can't just wave a wand and produce a genetic test, you need a large data base, you need an amount of dogs that have a particular problem and then you need 'LUCK' to finding the rite marker on the rite gene, and you need a good geneticist, not just a scientist that knows about genetics, you need a specialist in his or her field..
But when breeding a dog or any other animal you need an EYE for the shape etc of the animal that you are trying to breed. And a lot of LUCK.

[Susan Stone]

Intuition and eye is all very well... but it still wont make you a good breeder. A basic knowledge of genetics is a MUST, or else we are just being irresponsible.