Quel avenir pour le setter irlandais en France ?

[Monique VIRY]

Nouvelles directives de jugement données par le Red Club en France.
Lors de l'assemblée générale du Red Club, le 28 juillet 2007, le comité nous a indiqué les nouvelles directives de jugement :
Taille idéale pour obtenir le CACS : 56 à 60 cm pour les femelles et 59 à 64 cm pour les mâles.
Ces tailles ont été fixées car, d'après le comité, les grands chiens ne savent pas chasser.
Pour obtenir le CAC en exposition il faut avoir 7 caractères jugés excellents ( tête, avant main, corps, arrière main, ensemble, robe et démarche ) et un chien dans la taille idéale.
Ceci nous a été indiqué le samedi avec application à partir du lendemain lors de la Nationale d'Elevage.
Que pouvons nous faire, quel est l'avenir du setter irlandais en France ?
Je remercie Susan qui s'est proposée pour la traduction.

[Katariina Roiha]

my teeny weeny bitch shown on pictures is small ,56cm ,and my opinion is that she is ok in size BUT also I strongly think that the size shouldn´t go any smaller.
She is strongly boned and very muscular so she doesn´t look so tiny
In attaced picture she is all wet so you can see for yourselves.
She was the smallest of the litter, the other two bitches are 60cm and males are 63-65cm.
Attaced a picture of a brother to the female shown before

I prefer in FT type dogs stong build bodies and I dislike moskito-like dogs which are seen quite often.

The hight of the males when they´re ideal for hunting is just the 63-65cm. When dogs go bigger than that it shows directly in endurance/stamina/persistance when hunting.
I have seen and experinced that in my own eyes. The size of a hunting dog is most important, too small is not ideal also.
Too big males get their body dangerously overheated and they could die of dehydration. The amounts of water is enormous for big muscles and the warmth in the muscle gets dangerously high.

That is one thing why we have standard size made up for our dogs...

[Katariina Roiha]

and here she is again with a dry feathering.

What I see as a big problem in dogs in general is the lack of muscles and I am terrified of the chest on most showdogs. They´re so narrow it makes me say uh!

[Susan Stone]

Katariina - your girl looks great! Definitely no moskito - more like a musketeer... and thank you for giving a very valid reason for a size limit.

[Vanessa Woodward]

Yes Henk, maybe at the advanced age of 68 going on 69 I am beginning to sound like a high school teacher. One has learned a lot by my time in life and no, not all about Irish Setters. I have nowhere near your experience concerning this. However, I have been "adapting" to France for the last five years - it's a great country with friendly people. This does not necessarily make them the authority on dogs of any breed anymore than your experience makes you the supreme authority. Suggest you pay a visit to what I believe is one of the biggest, if not the biggest dog show in the world i.e. Crufts where you will now find dogs from numerous countries. In addition you will find judges of a variety of nationalities. They will show you what an Irish Setter Should look like.

Incidentally, I'm past getting involved in slanging matches but in one of your early messages you referred to the arrogance of some people. At the time I held back but we have a saying in English about the pot calling the kettle black. We all need to be self aware. We also all need to appreciate that whatever our experience we can learn things from others. The original Irish Setter was not, I am assured by several International Judges, the John Nash type but obviously you think you know better and who am I to argue with such an expert.

Enough said. As I have already pointed out., this discussion was originally about the right of the Red Club to change the standard without reference to the FCI and this is what I am interested in. Not whether your dogs/little dogs/big dogs etc are better for hunting, as companions or as pets.

Oh and by the way - it's some time since we ruled Southern Ireland, but just incase you didn't know, Northern Ireland is still part of the UK and I understand, prefers it that way!

You obviously enjoy your hunting. Good luck to you! It is something I am totally ambivalent about and I would not stop anytone from taking part in this sport. Personally I have no great enthusiasm for shooting little birds and my setters seem to get quite enough fun out of life without this type of excercise. They will certainly never be abandoned because they are not up to the job. This happens a lot to hunting dogs in France, (any vet or animal protection society here will confirme this) although possible not so much to setters. However, I do not of one rescue dog, an English Setter, past hunting, where the hunters had decided he was no good and tried to put him down without recourse to a vet. He was rescued with thirty two pieces of shot in him.

Vanessa

[Henk ten Klooster]

Vanessa,

First time visiting Crufts was in 1975, still in London at the time. Biggest difference in winning type was compared to last visit (nineties-Birmingham): height & weight, both up.

Visiting first EC working Irish setters in France (1996), a lot of dogs there were in height & weight close to the preferred type Crufts 1975. Who's the real Mc Coy in your eyes?

Good to read you enjoy France as a "great country with friendly people". Don't let a few centimeters dog more or less depress you. Life is too short for that. Keep enjoying so never ask a French hunter to shoot your dog!!!!

[Vanessa Woodward]

Thank Susan.

I too am not sure about CAC shows but the way I read it, if France is a member of the FCI then this is the standard that should apply at any show. I'd be very pleased if this could be established by someone more expert than myself.

Vanessa

[Vanessa Woodward]

Thank you Frances, that's precisely my own impression. We need, as Sian has suggested I think, a joint letter, in French and in English, to the FCI. I'm not sure whether we could do this by e-mail, or whether is should be more official, sent Envoyer a Recommande, (sorry - probably incorrecf spelling)
with everyone's signature. This would mean the letter being written and agreed, then sent from person to person before going to the FCI.

Can we have feedback from everyone interested please. Really we just need a starting point and someone who is very articulate in both French and English.

Vanessa

[Jacques MATHIEU]

Je ne sais pas comment faire mais il faudrait calmer cette différence entre Henke, Vanessa et autres personnes.
Il est évident que chacun restera sur sa position. Nous avons tous le Setter Irlandais que nous aimons. Nous avons tous le vrai Setter Irlandais. Qui détient la vérité, je ne sais pas. Et je pose la question : qui sait ? Est-ce que quelqu'un sait ?
Peu importe. Vous avez chacun le Setter irlandais que vous aimez.
La question de ce forum n'était pas là. Il faudrait revenir à l'origine du sujet. Ou bien ne plus en parler.
Grand chien, petit chien, trop grand, trop petit. Trop clair, trop foncé. Trop de soies, pas assez de soies. Ce n'était pas cela.
A Henke, je préciserai quand même que des membres du Red Club sont allés en Irlandais cet été, c'est vrai; ils ne représentaient pas le Red Club, ils n'en avaient pas le mandat. Ils ne représentaient qu'eux-mêmes. C'est d'ailleurs avec une certaine discrétion qu'ils ont organisés, entre eux, ce déplacement.
Ce que l'on veut savoir, c'est : est-ce que des juges français ou d'autres nationalités, dans une exposition internationale (CACIB) mais aussi nationale (CACS) doivent tenir compte des directives deu Red Club en ce qui concerne la fourchette de taille préconisée pour l'attribution de ces certificats ?
Peuvent-ils , doivent-ils, s'en tenir aux tailles fixées par le Standard de la FCI ?

Jacques

[Susan Stone]

Jacques reply
translation french - english
***
I'm not sure how to do so, but it is necessary to calm down the differences in opinion between Henk, Vanessa and others.
It is obvious that each will remain with their point of view. We all/each have the Irish Setter we love. We each/all have the 'true' Irish Setter. Who is in possession of the truth I don't know. And I ask who does? Is anyone in possession of the truth?
It is of little importance. You each have the setter you love.
This was not the question of the forum. We should come back to the origin of the theme or else discuss it no longer. Big dog, little dog, too bog, too small. Too light, too dark. Too much coat, not enough coat. That is not what it was about.
To Henk I still wish to clarify that members of the Red Club went to Ireland this summer, that is correct; they did not represent the Red Club, they did not have a mandate. They only represented themselves. It was therefore with a certain degree of discretion that they organised the trip.
The question of this forum is: must french judges or judges of other nationalities officiating at an international (CACIB) or national (CACS) show adhere to the directives of the Red Club when it comes to the size prescribed for the allocation of the challenge certificats?
Can they or must they follow the size described in the FCI standard?
***

[Henk ten Klooster]

Facts:

Books:
Les Setters (L.Moreau, 1964): taille: 50-60 cm; poids: 22-27 kg; Onze Honden (PMC Toepoel, ): 55-65 cm; 22-27 kg

Website Irish Red Setter Club AND Red Cub France (=FCI) 2007: Males 23 ins. (58 cm) to 26.5 ins. (67 cm); Females 21.5 ins. (55 cm) to 24.5 ins. (62 cm). So no difference.

Viry (reporting on a decision of the Red Club France not confirmed): Taille idéale pour obtenir le CACS : 56 à 60 cm pour les femelles et 59 à 64 cm pour les mâles.
Jacqui: Can you confirm this info from Viry?

Question: can/must Red Club France follow sizes described in the FCI-standard?

Answer: it is not very intelligent to ask this question on a website where 99% of the members are showpeople who raised the height & weight of the Irish setter in a few decades hugely. Of course they will say NO.

More interesting is to ask experts who are in charge of height & weight in standards: why this height (and no weight)? Katariina already gave an answer.... That is how you can learn something...

[Carmel Murphy]

I think the Red Club of France should follow the standard as set out by the FCI(country of origin)for the recommended size of Irish Red Setters as everyone is striving to do in all FCI countries!! And I resent the comment on show people only changing the height of the setter!! Many working dogs also have been the wrong height!!(remember we did not have a height standard to start with!!!!) We should all be trying to come as close as possible to the breed standard(FCI) and also maintain the hunting skills of this most beautiful dog!! Just because a breeder only shows or does agility, obedience does not say we dont wish to produce a well rounded type of setter who can do it all! I am very much in favour of dual purpose dogs who are within the breed standard which includes following the height standard from Ireland. Hank are you sure it is 99% show people on this site? You seem so sure about everything else!!

[Monique VIRY]

Henk,
Cette information concernant les tailles nous a été donnée lors de l'assemblée générale le 28 juillet 2007. Elle paraît également dans un référentiel édité par le Red Club en juillet 2007 et proposé à ses membres lors du week-end irlandais.
Je suis d'accord avec le recentrage des tailles vers le milieu car, en croisant des grands chiens entre eux, on prend le risque de produire des chiens hors standard FCI.
Mais nous voulions savoir s'il est possible à un pays d'avoir des normes différentes de celles de la FCI.
En plus l'application immédiate de ces nouvelles directives de jugement dès le lendemain ( lors de la nationale d'élevage ) ne me semble pas correcte.
Oeuvrons tous pour le bon et beau setter irlandais.