Animal Protection: Stop inbreeding, open registries, ban unhealthy breeds, curtail shows

[Henk ten Klooster]

Ban unhealthy breeds, attack inbreeding by opening up of registries permanently, stop breed standard exaggeration, curtail shows.

That is the advice of the Animal Protection the Netherlands (Dierenbescherming). With more than 40% of purebred dogs something is wrong, states the organization. Main source of that according to Animal Protection: dogshows.

Most Dutch media were focusing on this these days, after broadcasting of the British documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed on television.

How is that in your culture and what is your opinion?

[Cheryl Gorey]

I am interested in this aspect of bloat and perhaps we should start another forum which purely talks about bloat and members can put some information forward. The young male out in here in Australia who has bloated (not twisted) at 15 months, was found to have had (because they couldn't get the tube down) ulcers at the opening of his oesophagus. What gives a 15mth old dog ulcers?

It would be valuable to know whether there is more to this aspect that we realise? Could there be a stomach problem and because of the thoracic width/depth ratio in the breed, creates the GDV (whether they just blow or twist as well). I have been trolling through other discussion forums here on ES and picking out relevant discussions on bloat. Should we have a health section where we can put up specific information about this health disease. Also, the breeder of my young boy, has a query as to whether it affects dogs more who are experiencing pain. After his 8yr old bloated, it was found that she had cystic ovaries. Could this pain have created the cause and the bloat was the effect??

Should we start a separate discussion on this?

[eva ciechonska]

In response to Garrech and Canagan, I totally agree, and I will write no more on this subject but, you understand that you started this discussion and as both the breeder of your puppy and the 2nd breeder are not members of this site they cannot respond to you or to defend themselves against your unjustified accusations in order to provide a balanced view. I am very much aquainted with both breeders which is why I could not leave your comments unanswered. I do sincerely feel that you should open up discussion with your breeder if not directly then through your respective vets/consultants. Let us now draw a line under this and I may email you after Christmas.

[Garrech and Canagan]

Eva,

I look forward to your email.

I trust you have an enjoyable Christmas

[eva ciechonska]

Eva - with all due respect you do not know the history of this, you are basing your assumption on what you have been told and you have read - we go back to the ongoing argument that people believe what is reported to them which might not always be the complete facts. What has happened to this dog and what he is going through is a tragedy and everyone has great sympathy for Garrech and Canagan but this is not a forum for personal grieviences. Let me just say that their "quoted statistics" are not correct. Irish Setters do not suffer more from this condition than any other breed they are, infact,14th in the table of most susceptible breeds. To go back to the point in hand this is a discussion on the backlash that is happening in many countries against the breeding of pedigree dogs which is a worry to us all and which has to be addressed. It has come about from biased and sensationalized reporting and an ignorance, or worse, a supression of the facts. There are many concerned and careful breeders (in all breeds) who agonise over every smallest aspect of producing a litter, who pour over pedigrees, who are careful with their stud dogs who hip score their dogs and subscribe to every genetic programme available to them. And yes, despite all of that things can go wrong but shit happens - this is an inexact art with a living being not and inanimate object Can I also say that everytime you outcross you run the risk of bringing in problems that you have not had before. If you import dogs from overseas you run the risk of introducing into the country defects that can be common in that country but unseen in yours. The damage can be catastrophic. So proceed with caution breed sensibly and don't blame everything on heredity or someone else's stud dog.

[ursula wilby]

I have read the text on Garrech and Canagans website, and it is a totally awful situation they are in.
I feel so sorry for the dog, the owner, but also for the breeder.
I find it hard to imagine that there are breeders deliberatly breeding sick animals. And I dont think for one moment that this has been the case here.

But it is far too easy to only blame inbreeding for ALL problem in pure-bred dogs.
If this was the root of all evil, all human babies would be born healthy and live long lives without any problems other than those related to old age.
We all know this is not the case.
Yet practically all humans are NOT products of in- or line-breeding.

[eva ciechonska]

Oh Ursula - you are SO right in all you say. It gives us hope to know that none of this is in vain. Thank you for your rational comment.

[Susan Stone]

Sorry Ursula, but I can not agree. Humans actually have a lower incidence of for example epilepsy than can be observed in certain breeds of dogs. Many genetic issues are researched in dogs so as to help find genetic markers and possible treatment for the disease in humans. The reason is that pure bred dogs have a higher level of homozygosity than humans do which makes it easier to define the genetic background of disease. The predisposition of certain breeds to be affected by breed typical illnesses (and GDV is definitely one of them in Irish Setters) is proof alone that there must be a genetic component.

A high level of inbreeding as we find in many purebred dogs will lead to inbreeding depression and lack of general fitness traits such as longevity and the ability to combat disease in general. This is not my opinion but fact proven by geneticists. We dog breeders must slowly come to terms with the fact that linebreeding (which in actual fact is a degree of inbreeding) is no longer the way to go, it is far more important to maintain the diversity of the breed.

If I remember correctly a COI of below 10 (over 10 generations!) is considered acceptable to maintain genetic diversity. Most of our dogs are higher... and it makes a huge difference when calculating COI of a dog whether you are looking at 5 generations or 10. For example my dog's COI is at 1.5% over 5 generations but rises to 15% over 10 generations - and ShCh Wendeover Gentleman is present over 90 times in his 10 generation pedigree!

I know we have discussed this theme before, but I am sure it is of interest to newer members to the list.

[ursula wilby]

I agree with what you write Susan, but also feel that we can not blame high COI alone for everything.
If this was the case the human race would be far healthier.

[Susan Stone]

True, as always there is no simple answer (there I go, agreeing again...)

Still I do feel COI should be used in conjunction with all the other factors when we are planning a mating. IMHO present day breeding practice does not take it into account enough. Hopefully the winds or change are coming over us... not last thanks to programmes like PDE that have actually woken up the KC and the breed clubs and have increased awareness of the buying public.

The Netherlands seem to be well ahead of other countries where it comes to imposing breeding rules. Not always a good thing, I agree, but let's be honest: would breeders comply if all were free to personal choice?

I was pleased to read in the Summer Newsletter of the Irish Setter Breeders Club (GB) that they are taking health matters seriously and there are plans to collect much needed data on the incidence of conditions like bloat (GDV), MO and epilepsy.

[Susan Stone]

quote Ursula: If this was the case the human race would be far healthier.

Well, the average life expectancy of us humans has increased tremendously over the last decades...

[ursula wilby]

Oh I will agree as well Susan :-)

The life expectancy of us humans HAS increased tremendously over the last decades.
But not due to the lowering of COI amongst the human breeding-stock...:-)

[Susan Stone]

humans never had the COI that pure bred dogs have... ;o)