AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

[Henk ten Klooster]

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete https://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? https://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
........................
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

[terry o leary]

Hello Henk when you state that Harry was bred from only once, do you really believe that Harry was sent to the America just to mate one bitch. Was that the mating of Harry to a Autumnwood bitch bred by Pat Brigden. Just so I have this right Harry was sent to America and the only bitch he mated when he was there was a Autumnwood bitch whose breeding could had in Europe or Britain. As you may know two pups from that litter was sent to Europe one was for Jim Sheridan the committee of the IRWSC requested that the pup be DNA tested to confirm the pups parentage or it be sent back to America. It was sent back to America I was told that other pup did not work out that he was given away and not bred from.???? did you ever hear anything futher about the pup. So you can understand why is vital to know the names of the Breeders and the names of the Irish bred IRWS used in this "research".In regards to the Red Setter bitch here in Ireland descended from American Red Setter Lines I believe she has been neutered by her owner.I do hope Creg will more open and supply the information on the names of the breeders and their IRWS used in the "research".

[Henk ten Klooster]

The Irish red setter in Ireland descending from -under more- ARS lineage was not only one of the winningest in Ireland, her son in Ireland as well.

As for Harry's litter in the USA yes an Autumnwood bitch showlines. Sending back or no success - well in such a combination and even working only not every pup is a success in the field. So whats the problem - selection is needed. Even John Nash sold some as pets.

Greg Williams is joining this website and willing to provide names of those tested in his scheme here.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk, If we have another outcross for the IRWS, we want to carefully choose the best possible red Irish Setters to use. Excellent working dogs, health tested for everything, good conformation, good type , and in phenotype not too far removed from the IRWS. These will be EXCEPTIONAL dogs who will bring something good to the breed, as well as genetic diversity - otherwise there is no point in doing an outcross

If it were up me to choose the dogs, I wouldnt be choosing Harry or his offspring, or the descendants of the Jennings dogs, I want something BETTER. I am not interested in ANYTHING with American Red Setter in the breeding.
Just because Harry belongs to your good friend Gerard, or other dogs belong to your good friend Jean, is not a reason for using them
You focus too much on individual dogs - you have the mentality of the journalist always looking for the good story. You need to identify what the needs of the breed are , then start to search for the right dogs to meet those needs. And it isnt a task for freelance individuals, it is for the Irish Kennel Club and the breed club in Ireland to plan an outcross

[Henk ten Klooster]

Margaret you have written in this topic before: "when Harry's descendants have reached 4th generation red and white, I would consider using them". Now you write "I wouldnt be choosing Harry or his offspring". Try to explain yourself and us what your opinion really is, can it be a third opinion????:-))))))

[Margaret Sierakowski]

There are currently one or two dogs running in field trials in Ireland whose working style is that of neither the red Irish Setter or the IRWS. A matter for some concern, dont you think? One wonders where their working style has come from?

[Henk ten Klooster]

You don't mean Harriet do you? As pointed out before, Harry neither Harriet has American Red Setter lineage. It is possible they became mixed up in a debate on ARS, subsequently confused with. And possibly this was done with good reasons.... Their pedigrees can be traced back in direct male line to Ch Palmerston, that is impossible to do in most IRWS, including yours.

[colette tuite]

Margaret,I am curious to know what type of working style do these other animals exhibit?/What are they doing?

[Ann Millington]

The DNA test used by Dr Fretwell distinguishes setters from other groups. The DNA from Irish, English, Gordon or IRWS or any mixture of these is the same. It cannot distinguish or prove that the American RWS are itdentical to IRISH RWS.
For the test to have any interest in regard to the issue, the full source of all the DNA would have to be known.
It would be an interesting study - regardless of politics and posturing.
Ann Millington

[Henk ten Klooster]

From what I've seen of graphics of DNA involved, the IRWS tested do cluster, clearly separated from other setters.

And yes a study regardless of politics and posturing would be VERY interesting.In fact it is stupid that is has not been used by anyone else before Greg Williams. And results of that one are interesting as well at least for those who are open-minded to science and possibilities new DNA-research methods may provide setterbreeds.

[Thomas&Merete-Kennel Alvertoppen]

Here is a video of Pallas Green Harriet running on field trial at Wicklow, september 2009. She showed great (maybe the greatest of all starting dogs) intensity and overall working style (hunting desire), got 3rd saturday. Both trials (saturday & sunday) were won by the experienced Craigrua Osprey. Also Craigrua Kansas (Osprey X Gingersnap) showed good qualities, among others. Very few grouse and snipe were found/observed on this very windy trial, making Ospreys double victory even more impressing.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Breath-taking!!!! Makes a heart beat louder. A picture tells more than a thousand words. Your clip beats that. Many thanks Merete and Thomas for the opportunity to see her again and again, just sitting here.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Osprey is not the problem. A very impressive dog, very well trained, and when one see him running, it all fits together with what one knows is in his pedigree


Nice videos, thanks