Quel avenir pour le setter irlandais en France ?

[Monique VIRY]

Nouvelles directives de jugement données par le Red Club en France.
Lors de l'assemblée générale du Red Club, le 28 juillet 2007, le comité nous a indiqué les nouvelles directives de jugement :
Taille idéale pour obtenir le CACS : 56 à 60 cm pour les femelles et 59 à 64 cm pour les mâles.
Ces tailles ont été fixées car, d'après le comité, les grands chiens ne savent pas chasser.
Pour obtenir le CAC en exposition il faut avoir 7 caractères jugés excellents ( tête, avant main, corps, arrière main, ensemble, robe et démarche ) et un chien dans la taille idéale.
Ceci nous a été indiqué le samedi avec application à partir du lendemain lors de la Nationale d'Elevage.
Que pouvons nous faire, quel est l'avenir du setter irlandais en France ?
Je remercie Susan qui s'est proposée pour la traduction.

[Florence Carton]

Hello, Alenka,
I've seen you have the Irish setters in your breeds at Chalons en Champagne ...

[Cecilia GUIOT]

Une réunion doit prochainement avoir lieu entre la SCC et le Red Club ( Club français du Setter irlandais) au sujet de ces nouvelles directives.
Si nous voulons sauver les setter irlandais, il est urgent de faire pression sur la SCC afin qu'elle refuse de valider ces directives de jugement.
Si vous souhaitez nous aider, merci d'envoyer très rapidement un courrier d'opposition au président de la Société Centrale Canine - (155 Avenue jean JAURES- 93535 AUBERVILLIERS)
merci de votre aide.

[Mary S.]

Here's my stab at translation, and then a response:

The SCC and the Red Club (Irish Setter Club of France) must meet soon about these new criteria.
If you want to save Irish setters (in France), It is urgent to to reach the SCC before they refuse to approve the new judgment criteria.
If you would like to help, please sent a letter opposing the president of the SCC ASAP -
(Pre'sident de la Socie'te' Centrale Canine
155 Avenue jean JAURES - 93535 AUBERVILLIERS
FRANCE
Thank you for your help

Now where I am confused about this:
In the United States, big dogs are favored for show dogs. The best field dogs, however, are smaller - and a new breed of smaller dogs more like the original Irish setters has been developed, which they call "Red Setters" (I have two, though we do not hunt). It is my understanding that BOTH the smaller dogs AND the larger dogs fit in the AKC's standards for size. In both cases, judging would be based upon the dog's qualities (given the dog fit a rather wide criteria for size).
Clearly this is a conversation about changing the standards in France - or I am misreading it completely? It is not just a conversation about what criteria should be used for judging. It sounds to me as if it is about excluding large dogs, rather than including small dogs. I could be wrong.
If I read Cecelia's post correctly, the Irish Setter Association in France has decided to go with smaller standards to encourage breeding dogs more like the original Irish's. But unlike the movement in America -which affords the choice of either the large show dogs or smaller field dogs, what I am reading here is a movement to restrict formally qualified Irish setters to the smaller dogs. Otherwise the part about "si nous voulons sauver les setter irlandais" - if we want to save Irish setters in France - wouldn't make any sense.
Or does the standard in France set the size of the smallest dogs too tall for Red Setters?
Is it possible that unless the standards of the "Red Club (Club francais du Setter irlandais) are adopted by the SCC, then there will be two sets of clashing standards and therefore there won't be any way setters can participate in upcoming shows?

Here's my best effort in French:

Je ne comprends pas. Qu'est-ce que serait les consequences si la SCC refuse de valider les directives nouvelles? Pourquoi est-il urgent? Qu'est ce que sait les directives pre'ce'dent?

Est-il possible qu'il n'aurait pas des directives nationales en France parce que le Red Club a changer les directives, et il n'est pas possible a rendre consenant les directives du Red Club avec les directives de la SCC, a moins que la SCC change leur directives? Aussi, est le probleme le taille des setters Irlandais maintenant?

Qui ne pouvoir pas participer a la competition si la SCC refuse de valider les directives nouvelles de jugement? Qui ne pouvoir pas participer a la competition si les directives nouvelles sont accepte'?

Mary S.

[Susan Stone]

Hi Mary,

I just noticed a hitch in the translation from Cecilia's french message to english which changes the meaning:

'il est urgent de faire pression sur la SCC afin qu'elle refuse de valider ces directives...'

correct: 'it is urgent to put pressure on the SCC so that they refuse to validate these directives...' - not before...

You will see in the previous correspondence (over 14 pages...) where the french member's difficulties lie.

[Henk ten Klooster]

A decent discussion is when opposed parties (here: Red Club France versus some show people) can enlighten their motives. In this site, only one of both parties (some disappointed show people) provide reactions.

It could be a learning experience, to get to know motives for the Red Club France for different sizes, a few centimeters smaller than the FCI-standard. That is painfully missing in this topic, where most people in essence say: we agree with eachother.

Here theres only a chance to guess about motives. In a recent book entitled "Hond Staat" (Dog Points) facts are provided why size & weight (related) effects movement and the possibility for Irish setters to be effective as a hunting dog.

Two cultures are named, France and Norway so the info is relevant. Dogs that hunt on rocky ground or in the mountains have to be according to the author light "to prevend damage of muscles, bone" etc. In theory, according to that book, a bird-dog makes in an hour 14.000 galloping moves. If 20 kilograms= 14.000 x 20 kg= 280.000 kilograms in an hour to move about.

In posts in this discussion I have read until now exactly one motivated topic for size having a big impact on Irish setters galloping fields. It came from Katariina. Her opinion in my words: a big dog cannot fulfill its original function. When it still has the passion to do so, you have a BIG problem.

Most reactions here came from people not working, only showing. Arguments why their short term interest of winning a beauty-contest is of importance for a healthy future for a working breed are not provided. At least I have not read them while scanning posts. Arguments for the opposite of that opinion are provided in more topics here like "Is the Irish setter a ruined breed?".

This is not an agreement with sizes apparently preferred by the Red Club France. Theres a lack of information here to form an opinion. But it may well be, that a healthy future for the Irish setter is in better hands with the Red Club France than with people out for winning shows only.

[Alenka Pokorn]

I think the main point in this discussion is how can one Club (from what I understand the committee and not all members) that is member of FCI order judges to follow an unofficial standard. If they are FCI judges they MUST follow the FCI standard of there will be consequences. It was not meant to be a discussion on what is the right size for an Irish Setters. That part should and will be decided by the parent club for the breed.

Alenka

[Monique VIRY]

Merci Alenka de repositionner le débat tel qu'il était à l'origine. Effectivement si chaque pays adhérent à la FCI a ses propres directives de jugement quelle sera l'utilité d'un standard international ?

[Sian Thomas]

My thoughts at this time are that those who feel that there should be choice for owners and breeders within France to own and breed dogs that meet FCI standards and not standards arbitarily imposed by a committee, they should please write to the President of the SCC, (address already provided) to insist that the FCI standard is maintained in France.

I am also going to make a quick comment about size, without being "protectionist " the setters were bred in Britain to meet the demands of the terrain there and yes the mountains in Norway, France and probably Germany are much bigger than they are in Ireland. As I said in an earlier comment if other nations want to develop a setter to meet the needs of working and hunting on their local terrain fine, but this is a specific breed for a specific task on specific terrain. Sorry had to get that off my chest;

[Henk ten Klooster]

Posts crossed here, so I did not read yours Sian before posting.

At least you do touch backgrounds for this topic. Do you think its wise to breed a working dog not able to gallop terrains in France?

Can you provide motives of the Red Club France? In my eyes it is not decent neither wise to discuss ABOUT and not WITH a party in a topic on the basis of single-sided so coloured information.

[Sian Thomas]

I am not saying that Henk, the joy for me of an Irish setter is to see it running and working naturally in the field. But if the Red Club do not think that the breed fits their ideal that is not an excuse to change the fundamentals.

I agree that this should be discussed with the Red Club, but they most importantly did not refer to the membership and they did not even promulgate the changes that they had imposed on their club web site. It does not appear to me that they have been open to discussion and this meeting which is between the Red Club, SCC and those who oppose the changes will be where the discussion takes place. But I couldn't have said it better myself Rules are Rules!

[Henk ten Klooster]

Great reading your joy is an Irish setter "running and working naturally in the field" Sian. C'est le ton qui fait la musique!

My experience is: more and more Irish setters are not capable of that anymore, because height&weight went up & up over last decades.

If you have the opportunity of an open discussion with the Red Club France, you are lucky! Probably worlds best knowledged experts are in their circles.

Personnally I object anyone imposing rules without saying why. So if what you are writing is correct, they have a lot to explain.

You may be angry in France about according to the FCI standard undersized Irish setters, in many other European countries there are still oversized winning.

So rules=rules is in practice= interpretation of rules=ruling.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Rules=rules. FCI=FCI. Right. Thats how simple life can be! Why would people want to know WHY? Continue saying to eachother that you agree with eachother all of this lengthy topic long. And don't ask the club about whom you are "discussing" WHY they did it. That way life stays simple!