Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Margaret Sierakowski]

The KC stud books for the 1960s list only the awards at the field , and dont say how many were entered.
But the earliest trials from 1865 onwards were reported in detail in the KC stud books. The first KC stud book (1874) has all the field trials from 1865 to 1874, at that time they had separate trials for pointers and setters. The biggest entries were around 12 dogs, the smallest as low as 5, so they had plenty of time to run each brace, compared with modern trials, and every dog is reported on. Some of the trial reports are up to 3 pages long and very detailed

[Henk ten Klooster]

The topic asks to document your opinion. A change of movement for the worse is documented by three experts: Rasbridge, Nagle and O'Dwyer. Thats something else than bashing showjudges (Eva), it is about a breed losing its wheels. Your opinions?

UK expert Rasbridge stated in 1980 in an overview of main developments in Irish setters in the UK that movement has degenerated and was the biggest change in the breed. He sought the reason for this in absence of knowledge in show-judges of how an Irish setters works in fields.

Rasbridge documented this with facts: in 1979 only a few of the 47 showjudges had some experience with an Irish setter as hunting dog. No judge came from Ireland. Half a century before that, a majority of showjudges had working experiences and a vast majority came from Ireland.

Therefore a repeated question: how is education of UK showjudges on movement? Is something done with these critics? Ís it true that some showjudges think movement means movement in coat?:-)

[Ossian]

Oh poor Henk.... a hundred and eighty posts and ya still cant get this bunch of blatherin' women to agree that the breed has changed!
What do you want us to say?

[eva ciechonska]

Dear Ossian, of course the breed has changed in the last 50 years, we just like debating!!!! I personally find much to learn during these discussions.....you might think you know everything but there will always be someone who can increse your knowledge.
I have been showing IS for a fair bit of time and have seen the breed change since the early 70s though not as much in the UK and Europe as it has in the US, Australia and New Zealand.
Henk and I have argued at length about the wavey coat but I would sooner see waves then the curtains of feathering that hang from the American and Australian dogs. I find it worrying that the American influence is extending to the Continent and the trend to grow the ear fringes long, not in accordance with the standard, for me, unbalances the overall proportions of the dog. I think that Continental judges place more emphasis on the straightness of the coat than they do to the conformation and construction underneath and they are totally ignoring heads, which are becoming untypical in shape and expression.......this has been confirmed time and time again.
I think it is good that novice judges have to attend a field trial as part of their education to watch the dogs at work and to remind themselves of what the IS was bred for. It wouldn't harm established judges and breeders to remind themselves occasionally either. Movement has never been great but judges can only work with what they are given, however, more and more breeders are starting to put greater emphasis on this so, hopefully, there will be improvement.
I think the working setters have also changed. They have become smaller, lighter, faster. Margaret herself says, very often almost out of control.......and that is what the field trialers like to see. I think their conformation has changed, they have lost their forechests and though in extension their movement is superior to the show dogs their fore and hind movement could be greatly improved (certainly in the working dogs I have judged). Heads have become untypical with flat skulls and higher earsets. Many have hardly any fringes and short pointer body coats, too light in colour. The gap has widened on both sides. And not always to the good.
Iar, I know that only the American working dogs point with their tails in the air and I totally agree with you on how unsightly it is.
Would love to hear all your observations

[Ossian]

you might think you know everything but there will always be someone who can increse your knowledge>>

Oh OUCH!!! what did I do to deserve that??

[ricky young]

Hi All
I believe the breed has changed a great deal. Now that the world has become a smaller place and access to other dogs and the use of AI has meant that we can find dogs that in your own personal opinion will improve your breeding programe. We also groom our dogs differently. We feed them better or should I say that we have better food avialable. Even though I have only been involved since 1974 with showing Irish we in Australia do not shave their ears but let the natural feathering fall. I believe this gives the dog a much softer expression.
Maybe a lot of the difference may be put down to the fact that in some countries they breed for speciality shows and judges and in others they breed for all breed shows and judges. Most of the shows in Australia are All Breed Shows with a few gundog group shows and only 2 irish setter speciality shows.
Some may reckon that our most prominent breeders are breeding this way. I still believe that our setters were the best in the world during the seventies and early eighties untill it became fashionable to have Imp insignia behind the sire or dam's name. Maybe not to breed themselves into a corner they went completely away from the type of their own bloodlines. I can say this because even though I have been with Irish for a while I have never bred. I also judge breeders with not only with what they win with but more importantly with what other exhibitors win with. This may be part of the reason why our numbers in Australia have declined. Newcomers have to exhibit inferia stock and therefore loose interest in showing.
Any how I look forward to any replies that may come my way, especially from Australia.
Good Luck all,
Cheers Rick

[Margaret Sierakowski]

" think the working setters have also changed. They have become smaller, lighter, faster. Margaret herself says, very often almost out of control.......and that is what the field trialers like to see. I think their conformation has changed, they have lost their forechests "

No,I didnt say they are often almost out of control.I was talking about one dog.
There is no point in running an out of control dog in a field trial, any more than there is no point running a very slow dog
What one wants is a fast dog , ground covering dog, that has a good nose and has good bird handling ability AND is under control
A dog with a lot of front chest is not going to be a fast dog. That is a problem for me.
y dogs from mixed show/working breeding tend to have less front chest than completely show bred dogs, and they get criticised by show judges because of it. But I know that if I breed to please the show judges with more front chest and more weight in the shoulders, the dogs will be slower

[Carmel Murphy]

I wonder about the prominent forechests on a lot of show dogs too!! My dogs in the 70's did not have big forechests and my present dogs dont either!! They have enough in front so as they are not totally flat and all have a definite sternum but european judges seem to expect a more prominent forechest and if you look at old photos of setters (both show and working)they had rather flat fronts!! I too think the less defined forechest makes for a faster dog;o)

[eva ciechonska]

Ossian, I wasn't refering to you I was talking about myself. Apologies if it came out like that. I do think that I am never to old to learn, even though I can be an argumentative bugger at times!!!! But I also think that everyone's education goes on all their life though no criticism of anyone intended.
Ladies, you are right that a dog with a lot of front chest isn't going to be a fast dog. My original dogs in the early 70s did have forechest and yes, show judges do look for it, and that is an interesting point. So is the modern field trial dog being bred with no forechest to make it faster but not necessarily a better worker?
I, personally, prefer to see forechest on a dog, it seems to come with better shoulder and upper arm angulation but a dog with a heavy shoulder?? I don't think so, it will not be racey, so that's a no no.

[Ossian]

Eva sorry I read it wrong! It was the "royal we"

Couldnt agree more about never being too old to learn.
Now I do need to learn...... when you describe "forechest".... that is the "front" right? If that is broad, but not too broad, then surely there is "heart room" which I would have thought you needed. Good dog needs a good "engine room"
What happens when a dog's chest "drops" and if the dog has a good "spring of rib"
Are these "show" terms which are not so important in a "working" dog

Forgive me - it took me a long time to work out where the occiput was! I used to think it was a small spotty "wild cat"

[Carmel Murphy]

Evie very funny on the wild cat;o)))) Took me a while to find out what the bump on the head was too;o)) The forechest has little to do with a broad front more to do with extra chest in front of the humerus bone or upper arm. And the spring of rib and depth of chest has more relevance to the lung and heart room than the forechest!!

[Ossian]

making gesture of hand flying clean over head...... Right!!!