Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Henk ten Klooster]

Kristi just a note on that link http://www.dejachthond.nl its my Giulla. The dam lineage is USA, inbred to mrs Nagle's Sulhamstead dogs. When that kennel stopped in the UK (1964), most IS were exported because UK breeders did not care about her dogs. They influenced working -and other- lineage in many cultures like Scandinavia and USA. One founded the new Moanruad lineage in Ireland (Natty) from whence nearly all best workers there now are descended, be it red or red and white. When I saw them on visiting the USA in 2001, I was surprised to see a few IS looking like a living museum for me. Nearly nobody cared for them anymore, be it field or work, they were not extreme either way. But for sure a joy to experienced eyes! Anyway thats the story of Giulla.

[terry o leary]

Hello Margaret I just had a read of the catalogue for The Irish Gundog Field&Show Society 1977.The judge for the reds was John Nash. I had entered two dogs under him.There was a healty mix of Irish and GB breeding.On the Irish side you had breeders like Luara Dunne Mullencluain Kay Bride Pairc-na-Glos dogs and breeders who had what you could describe as Dual Purpose dogs.I am sorry to say you do not find such breeders today in Ireland.It is sad to see the lack of Irish bred red setters in the ring today.If you wish to see Irish bred red setters in any numbers you will have to go to a FT to do so.As a judge I feel the reds here in Ireland are becoming more like "American Red Setter type" it could be I am just getting old and look back with rose tinted glasses.I dont see any reds like the Mullencluain/Pairc-na Glos Dual Purpose type of red setter anymore.I judged the the French Red Setter Club Show two years ago?? I was very pleased to find some reds which were like the type of red setter I had seen in Ireland many years ago.The dog I gave best of breed to I was pleased to find out he was a top FT dog.So I sorry to have to tell you if you are lookng for the old Irish Red Setter of dual Purpose type you wont find it here in Ireland. Terry

[Margaret Sierakowski]

"So I sorry to have to tell you if you are lookng for the old Irish Red Setter of dual Purpose type you wont find it here in Ireland. Terry"

I find that quite surprising. With other Irish native breeds, many breeders in Ireland seem determined to keep their own Irish lines going and to preserve type. I was really hoping and expecting to hear that there are still some people in Ireland who keep the older Irish lines going, even if the dogs are not shown so much. The kind of dog that Carmel mentioned,

[Carmel Murphy]

Terry I dont know which shows you have attended where you see setters looking like "American Red Setter types"?
Most setters in the show ring are closer to the UK type!! And I would not describe the UK setters as like the american type at all!!

[Ossian]

I feel you have to be very careful now defining Red and Irish in the US.
If your interest is "conformation" you will define an Irish Setter as a medium to large dog, very long neck, quite exaggerated stifles and an extreme amount of furnishing. what to the UK eye is a somewhat overblown example of a "setter"
However if you are watching a FT and there are "reds" entered you will see a small set, fine dog, with quite a sharp head and a tail that is set on at twelve oclock. Neither of these is easily recognised as an Irish Setter in UK terms

[Henk ten Klooster]

Definitions may be a problem for more readers/contributors of this topic. One try here in a nutshell.

Contrary to the FCI/UK standards, the American Irish setterworld was much more trendy in changing more times the standard see http://www.irishsetterclub.org/official_standard.html . Note for example on much debated fringes that this standard does support UK showjudges view on hair on the chest.

The split show/work was much sooner than in FCI/UK circles. As a result, in 1975 registries for both were on request of the Irish Setter Club of America separated: there is no reciprocal registry between American Kennel Club (AKC) and the working Field Dog Stud Book (FDSB) for Irish setters.

Wil this be -like Lars suggested- the future for FCI/UK Irish setters as well?

[Trudy Walsh]

The last Irish Setter to be campaigned by Maureen McKeever was Derrycarne Courage.
He was born on November 4th 1972.
He was, if my memory serves me correctly, about 26 inches on the shoulder. He was a very attractive dog, with a lovely rich coat and good feathering. He was well balanced with good front and rear angulation, good tailset and topline. He had excellent reach and drive. He also had a lovely white blaze on his chest. For me, he failed in head. Lacking in stop and depth of muzzle. He gained the necessary points for his title, but did not run for his Field Qualifier, which was necessary then. Maureen always showed him on a loose lead, allowing him to stand naturally wagging his tail. She always wore white gloves.
He was by Timadon Donegan (owned by Walter Thompson, Moirabank) out of Derrycarne Celebration.
I used Derrycarne AA on one of my bitches. He was by Finian of Bramley Hill out of Derrycarne My Sherry. I did not keep anything out of this litter, although one of the bitches is behind Sylvie Crossen's Rencross Irish Setters.
Maureen also used one of my dogs ( a son of Wendover Masterman) at stud for what I think was her last litter. She also used two of the Trenwith's dogs.
At the time Maureen was campaigning Courage, Laura Dunne was campaigning Ch Mullencluain Module & Mullencluain Winston. Module had a beautiful head, with raised brows and soft expression whereas Winston's head was a bit overdone. Both of these dogs were strong, substantial dogs with super bone. They also had nice feathering.
Neither of these ladies would tolerate Irish Setters that they felt were small and weedy.
My Irish Setters go back to Derrycarne, Wendover, Hartsbourne and some well known Irish working stock including Int FT Ch Rahard Belle.

[eva ciechonska]

Trudy, interesting point *Neither of these ladies would tolerate Irish Setters that they felt were small and weedy" and also a follow-on from Ossian's comment about field trial dogs in the states being " a small set, fine dog with quite a sharp head and a tail that is set on at twelve oclock". This implies that the working and FT dogs have also changed in the last 50 years and not to the better. I keep asking but no one will reply. Have they been bred to be smaller, faster, further away from the standard in coat (colour and quality) and conformation (finer bone and substance, no hindquarters,untypical heads, bad tails). It seem to me that while show dogs are being criticised for becoming over exaggerated FT dogs are going in the opposite direction altogether and the divide is becoming ever greater. When Maureen McKeever and Laura Dunne were campaigning their dogs there was not that difference and at all times they kept their eye on the beauty of the dog. So don't just bash the exhibitors, the field trialers are much to blame for rendering their dogs unrecognisable as Irish Setters.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Here is a gallery of photos of Apache des Sorcieres de Sancay , a French FT dog who has done a lot of winning.
As you can see , not a small weedy dog
I would be interested to know what people think of this dog

http://picasaweb.google.fr/TRUBUILTB/APACHE#

[eva ciechonska]

Margaret.......purely from a show eye and from the photographs.....always dangerous to make a correct assessment........Apache looks to have good conformation clean shoulders not too short in the back, good croup, tailset and very good quarters, carries his tail well. Looks to have great extension on the move. Would like to see him with more weight as you can see his ribs and haunches. Would like to see him with a better quality coat, seems to have a pointer coat on his body and very little feathering, less than "moderate" fringes. Colour is difficult to asses from the photographs but maybe could be a tad more "rich chestnut". Head slightly cobby and lacks refinement. Eyes seem a nice shape, alert, happy and intelligent expression. Ears difficult to assess as carried high, but then they would be in the field. All my opinion of course. Am now looking forward with interest to the opinions of others though I am sure a certain someone will shoot me down in flames but, hey, I can cope with that!!!!!!!!!!

[Henk ten Klooster]

This might help in assesment. Apache des Sorcieres du Sancy (winner EC 2010) a few editions of the EC ago. He is the dog on the right.

Eva I note your "Would like to see him with a better quality coat, seems to have a pointer coat on his body and very little feathering, less than "moderate" fringes." is in line with your notes before on the dog Thomas ISCNshow. Here a picture taken of him by Tonny Labohm. He is the dog in the middle.

Both depicted dogs are close family. Interestingly the mother of last dog (Grouse) is a littersister of red and white Harry.

[eva ciechonska]

Thanks Henk.....seems to point to a familial coat characteristic.Interested to know what your views on Apache's head would be as you love Derycarne Harp who has a lovely refined head, for me, Apache's head is overdone. But then the requirements of a FT dog would be based on performance over looks........difficult one that, when you are still trying to maintain the type of the Irish Setter. Apache is well within the size for a male with every part of him in proportion whereas I thought Thomas was too tall on the leg in proportion to the length of his back.