AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter (2) update

[Henk ten Klooster]

In case there is a setter heaven, Harry would smile now.This is an update of the topic on AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter, full contents kept.

The Irish red and white setter bred in 1998 in the Netherlands from red parents, is purified from behind his back blame on purity by a DNA-testing scheme in the USA. A research done by Mars Veterinary revealed, there is no difference in his American descendants DNA and those officially registered.

Harry and his descendants were stripped from American Kennel Club (AKC) registry. In FCI-registry his life continues. His daughter Pallas Green Harriet is Irish Field Trial Champion, the first Dutch born and raised Irish setter since 1880 to do so. She is trained and trialed by leading Irish red and white working setter breeder Jim Sheridan (Craigrua) in Ireland. He currently has a litter from....Harry, who died recently, eleven years of age.

See clip on Irish moors by Merete https://irishsetters.ning.com/video/field-trial-wicklow-mountains. Related: White on a red setter, hate it or love it? https://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/865021:Topic:10848

What is your opionion, should the AKC reconsider registry?
........................
topic before:

Worlds probably most adventurous Irish setter, "Harry", again makes headlines.

Today the red and white setter, born in 1998 at the place of Joop Harms in Uden, the Netherlands from all red parents amidst of red littermates, features in The Dog Press in the story "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters", by Mark R. Atkins.

In a nutshell: Harry and his descendants are stripped from records of the American Kennel Club (AKC) although entered in FCI. So in most of the world a recognized Irish red and white setter, but banned by the biggest kennelclub in the USA.

Harry returned a few months ago at the place of his owner, Gerard Mirck. He was in Ireland for matings. His trips before included the USA twice: a mating and field trials (walking). He won.

As well, he travelled all over Europe for training and trialling, competing more times in the European championship for working Irish setters. Once he was vice-winner, in Germany.

What is your opinion: is the AKC right or wrong in stripping Harry? And what are your arguments?

Henk ten Klooster.

You can access "AKC and the Irish Red and White Setters" by clicking http://www.thedogpress.com/ClubNews/AKC/06_IrishRW.Setters.Rec.AKC....

[terry o leary]

HI Ann As I said I have never seen Harry run in a FT he could enter in the Confined Stake in Sept in Ireland We could all see just how good he is.

[Ann Millington]

Agreed.
How do you stand on the title of this topic? -"AKC strips winning Dutch red and white setter."

[Ann Millington]

It is my understanding that at the time of the birth of Harry - from his Red parents with his Red siblings, he was registered by the Dutch KC as an Irish Red Setter. However, IRWS were becoming better known and his breeder petitioned long and hard to have Harry's registration changed to IRWS - eventually managing it when a new Dutch KC came into being. Regular IRWS breeders were/are very reluctant to include Harry in their breeding because the journey from the revival of the breed in Ireland has been a long and hard one and the country of origin (Ireland) finds this particular breeding undesirable. Harry was 'marketed' as a curiosity - red & white from a red litter and one 'enterprising' American, ever eager for curiosities, entertained him for breeding purposes along with other 'experimental' ventures into crossbreeding IRWS. Due to the long time it has taken for the AKC to recognise IRWS - (only this year!) the products of the crossbreeding are out there and depending on the zeal of their owners are seeking registration with the AKC. The AKC, however requires the documentation to show generations of 'pure' breeding before accepting individuals.
That Harry has been in Ireland siring litters is not smiled upon by Irish breeders but, as Ireland is now an FCI country, they cannot get out of the reciprocal arrangements that are part of the membership.
Don't get me wrong - Harry is a nice little dog and probably a good worker.... but he is not a pure bred IRWS.
Henk asks "whether the AKC is right or wrong in stripping a winning red and white Irish Setter from the registry" Two points here - what has 'winning' got to do with registering dogs? and Henk gets the title right Harry is a red and white Irish Setter - the AKC register is for Irish Red & White Setters - not the same thing.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Interesting to read views of an expert of the "making" of the Irish Red & White Setters in the United Kingdom, regarding Harry.

Just for the record: a what you call "marketing" of Harry was reporting on happenings around Harry. He is a face on often hidden facts of history.

Winning has indeed nothing directly to do with registry. But it is a fact, that Harry was the only red and white winning silver in the EC for working Irish setters and a special in the USA. And as well, according to the best trainers in continental Europe, the only red and white able to compete with the top of reds in Europe.

Sounds to me that every real fancier of red and whites would applaude, but apparently not in your scene. I really wonder why, personnally I've always enjoyed highlights in circles of red and whites whatever backgrounds, breeders or owners.

Well thats just feelings, lets stick to facts. The average red and white Irish setter is way over a coefficient of inbreeding (5) allowed by the Dutch club for Irish setters (red and red and white). Why don't you SEARCH for Harry's with some new blood????

[Ann Millington]

A correction - Harry was registered as an Irish Setter by his breeder - it was his owner who had his registration changed.

There is no dispute that Harry does well at Field Trials... but he is not the only one - Int/Irish FT Ch Pepperstown Polly? A multitude of FT Chs in Ireland? Has Harry run in Ireland or England? What title(s) does he have?

Is this the only qualification for a dog to be considered a valuable asset to a breeding programme?

We are well aware that COIs in IRWS are higher than we would like and the situation is viewed seriously.......BUT......
We have expended a lot of effort in the setting up of a comprehensive health programme in IRWS and have a system second to none.
Outcrossing to an Irish Setter is not a move to be taken unnecessarily nor carelessly - conditions like MO, Epilepsy, Bloat and PRA found in Irish Setters are not present in IRWS - should we risk introducing them? I think not!
And, sorry Henk, 'new blood' from the Sheantullagh/von Royal line (3/4 of Harry's pedigree) is absolutely NOT what IRWS need or want. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

[Thomas&Merete-Kennel Alvertoppen]

Hello Ann.

As a newbeginner in this field (IRWS) I am just wondering why you don't need or want Harrys "new blood" from the Sheantullagh/von Royal line? Is it something in those lines that you don't like or is those lines allready in the IRWS?

Best regards
Merete

[Ann Millington]

Hello Merete
When Harry was being 'promoted' as an addition to the IRWS breed some years ago, people from Continental Europe who knew this breeding well advised that there were 'issues' with the Sheantullagh line that we would not want - poor temperament was one of them. As Harry has not been seen either running in UK Field Trials or at UK shows and as there were no known health checks with him or his parents, plus the fact that he is a red and white Irish Setter with all the complications that involves, can you blame us for steering clear?

[Henk ten Klooster]

This is VERY interesting.

Lets talk CLAD. Isn't CLAD in both IRWS and IRS from the same source? If so, what does this teach you?

Your statement: "'new blood' from the Sheantullagh/von Royal line (3/4 of Harry's pedigree) is absolutely NOT what IRWS need or want".
So why do you think Harry was used in Ireland and his kids imported????

[Ann Millington]

You must be familiar with the working of the Revival of the breed in Ireland, Henk? - something NOT involving the UK Setter community at all.
By the time IRWS came into the UK the Revival was already established and the Stud book closed. UK IRWS breeding is based entirely on the IRWS of Ireland from 1980.
CLAD was passed into the IRWS population by Moanruad Brendan as it was, through him, to the Scandinavian IS. I have the CLAD research documents - starting in Upsala.

Why do I think Harry has been used in Ireland? This is what I THINK - I have no proof. The breeder who has used Harry (against the wishes of the IRWS Club of Ireland, I believe) has bred more than half the litters registered with the IKC per year and they are now very closely bred - and, I hear, are rather small. New blood is needed by this breeder to correct this situation. Why he doesn't use dogs that are already in Ireland, I don't know.....
Now don't fall out with me for not being told all that goes on in Ireland - perhaps someone from there, more clued up than I, can answer your question,"Why was Harry used in Ireland?"
I guess Harry's kids were imported because their dam was exported to Harry's owner by the above breeder.....

[Margaret Sierakowski]

Henk wrote
"Winning has indeed nothing directly to do with registry. But it is a fact, that Harry was the only red and white winning silver in the EC for working Irish setters and a special in the USA. And as well, according to the best trainers in continental Europe, the only red and white able to compete with the top of reds in Europe."

I would take issue with this ,Henk!
What is Harry's record of placings in field trials? Is he a field trial champion?
I would have thought that Pepperstown Polly was the most successful field trial IRWS in Europe, with around 18 placings in trials, two CACITs and five placings in International field trials
Her daughter Pollina, bred and owned by Fiorella Mathis, is also doing well in Italy and has just got her first CAC and CACIT
United Spots Irish Pride is an Italian FTCh, Exclusives Quickboy was a Swiss FTCh, and in Sweden Craigrua Rogue has a lengthy record of placings in field trials
In Germany there have been two IRWS, Deargban O Faolain and another one bred by Susanne Zumsande , who have had exceptional results in working tests
And in Ireland, there have been at least a dozen IRWS made up as field trial champions, and two in the UK. All these dogs , as far as I know have a better record in field trials than Harry. But I'm not sure what Harry has won? The trial he won in America was a walking stake for IRWS only with an entry of 2!

Harry spent several months in Ireland recently with Jim Sheridan but didnt run in any trials (his sojourn in Ireland was kept very quiet) , it would have been interesting to see how he compared with the Irish dogs.
As far as I am aware, Pallas Green Harriet is the only one of his offspring who has been placed or won in a field trial, or maybe I am wrong?
If one is going to bring new blood into IRWS, it has to be a really exceptional working dog, that is also an exceptionally good example of the breed in type, and is tested clear of any defects that are known in the breed (or in Irish Setters)

I'm not totally opposed to bringing in new blood, but I shall sit back and wait to see how Harry's offspring develop for the next three generations, and if they are actually BETTER than what we have already in working IRWS, and have something to offer in the way of IMPROVING existing stock, then why not use them? I'm not interested in using average or mediocre dogs just because they are different. Or a gimmick promoted by a couple of journalists :))

Harry has some shared ancestry with IRWS through the Moanruads, so doesnt actually add nuch to the pedigrees. But if we were to consider bringing new blood into the IRWS, maybe it would be better to use an exceptional red field trial dog with a completely different pedigree?
Margaret

[Silvia Lindner-Rae]

I fully agree with your there Margaret - Harry has nothing to offer what we do not already have. And I think we have much better than what he has to offer. And have you seen any exceptional red field trial dog? Or maybe we should ask Terry that! I know of some good von Royal ones - but then that is already in Harry's pedigree, isn't it?
Silvia

[Thomas&Merete-Kennel Alvertoppen]

First let me say: In Norway we have many exceptional red field trial dogs :)

I think it's difficult to judge Harry's working abilities without any FT results. In Norway we have pt. only one descendant from Harry (Craigrua Nash), with one FT start at 11 months of age. The results were not so bad: Hunting desire 4 and speed 3 (max is 6). This was a FT in the high mountains at winter. I think the norwegian FT's maybe demand a higher degree of hunting desire and intensity than continental FT's, especially in our High Mountain FT's which by far is the most popular and where the championships and Derbys are run. The snow is often deep and soggy. In the Winners class the dogs compete against each other, finding birds first and most often being the foremost criteria to win. You need a 1st in the winners class to get the CACIT, which is needed to become FT CH. To enter the Winners class, you need a 1st in the Quality class. To get a 1st, the dog must show an excellent search for a full 60 minutes (4x15), in addition to all the other criterias and of course point and flush in correct manner + retrieve.

To further describe our challenge with the working abilities for the IRWS, I have translated the new 2008-2012 Breed Program for the IRWS in Norway, by the Norwegian Breed Committee (translated from norwegian, may contain som minor translative errors...):

The new breeding program has four main issues in its criterias, in which working ability has the strongest focus:
1. Working ability
2. Behaviour/temperament
3. Health
4. Conformity/exterior

The reason working ability has the strongest focus, is due to the fact that this is where the IRWS in Scandinavia has the biggest challenge. Data from field trials will be used as an objective expression for the working abilities. Increase in hunting desire is the foremost target for the breeding program at this point. The average hunting desire for Norwegian IRWS in field trials up to and including 2007 is 2,68. The maximum for this scale is 6. The average for all pointing dogs in Norway is 3,95. For Norwegian IRWS who has entered field trials the average points for pace, style, independence, search range and search pattern is approximately half of the average for the red irish setters. The method of index-based breeding has shown good results for other breeds i.e. Breton. The 2008-2012 breeding program will foremost focus on the working abilities such as hunting desire, gamebird finding, search pattern/-range and cooperation. It is very important for the index-based breeding program that as many IRWS as possible enters field trials, and that each dog enters multiple times. To encourage this NISK arranges field training gatherings for IRWS, and for 2008 and on there will be a IRWS of the year-award based on points collected on field trials similar to the Irish Setter of the year award.

Regarding behaviour/temperament, health and conformity/exterior the breeding program also has high standards, which will not be discussed or attempted translated in this article.

The professional trainers and field triallers in Norway we have met at FT's and other occasions draw parallells between the IRWS today and the red irish 30 years ago (Norway). It would perhaps be nice to close this gap through a sanctioned outcross programme ?:)

Thomas