Black in coat on red setters

[Lena]

In my current litter, I have one boy with two black spots in his coat, just above the croup and going down his left side (see pictures).

Having asked around I have heard of at least six other combinations where this has occured and I have also had a particular dog's name mentioned in connection with this. This dog lived in the UK 35-40 years ago ... and yes, I have checked and the combinations (including mine) I have heard of are all doubled (at least) on this dog.
However, in my database I have a total of 2798 litters (= 18010 dogs) that are doubled on him, so I don't know if you this is something you can deduct anything from - I mean it would be more unlikely that the combinations I was checking would NOT have him than that they would!!!

Considering the amount of dogs, avoiding doubling on this dog would also be totally impossible (unless you use non-European lines), and in all my previous litters I have done so, just as a majority of other breeders in Sweden, the UK and the rest of Europe, so I am only wondering if black pops up more than is known in general, or is it so highly uncommon and rare as it seems?

Would be interesting to have any info you might be able to provide.

Of course, I am not looking to "blame" any particular dog, this is just pure interest - although the first thing I heard was that the black must come from the American lines in these puppies' pedigree, which I definitely do not believe having heard about other combinations.

Looking forward to your comments!

All the best from a now quite cold Sweden.
/Lena

[Piret]

We had in Estonia about 5-6 years ago Irish setter puppy who was full of black spots, so he looked more like black and red Irish setter. Father to this puppy was from Hungary and mother big mix of American, English and old Field Trial lines, bred here in Estonia.
.

[Laura Kolbach]

hehe, looks like all the black comes from hungary :-)))))))

[Lena]

Yes, Piret I have heard about that litter (it's one of the six I knew about). So, it's all Hungary's fault! :-)
No, seriously, of course not. That was not even an Hungarian born dog - but both sides had the lines back to the first dog I was checking for.
/Lena

[Laura Kolbach]

oh, just blame it on hungary... ;-))) it was even blamed for the puppy milling :-)))

[Lena]

Yeah, I remember the "puppy mill" we passed - but you wouldn't let me stop to do any shopping!!! ;-)

[Loma I. Clark]

I've never seen a puppy with such a big black spot or spots on it. Interesting for sure. We don't see many Irish Setters with black on them and our standard states.........."Mahogany or rich chestnut red with no black".

We have no disqualifications in our standard, so a person could show a dog with a small amount of black and not be kicked out of the ring.

I've seen Irish Setters with a few very small black spots on their heads that were in pet homes, bought thru a puppy mill.

[Henk ten Klooster]

The inspiration for Big Red written by Jim Kjelgaard was according to his daughter...a black Irish setter. Once the black ones were a very appreciated variety in Ireland by the way. Theres a story about a separate breed for them, in Silesia. Just like once the red and white Irish setter was recognized by the French kennelclub as "Scottish setter" first decades of 20th century. It became extinct after a few decades. Breeders was the Count de Montbrun and those red and whites came from the Arran islands, hunting grounds of the Irish family of Lord Rossmore (breeders of red and whites).

[Londa Warren]

Loma said:

>.....our standard states.........."Mahogany or rich chestnut red with no black". We have no disqualifications in our standard...<

My interpretation differs somewhat! It appears to me that the "no black" statement IS a disqualification because it goes on to state the amount of white that is allowed, while the "no disqualification" statement applies specifically ONLY to size!

Am I nuts?

Probably, Londa

[ursula wilby]

Well if YOU are nuts Londa, so am I!
I read the text in exactly the same way you do.
I can not see that a dog with black in the coat should be other than disqualified.

Nice to see you back here!
Ursula

[Loma I. Clark]

My interpretation differs somewhat! It appears to me that the "no black" statement IS a disqualification because it goes on to state the amount of white that is allowed, while the "no disqualification" statement applies specifically ONLY to size! Am I nuts? Probably, Londa

Our standard no where uses the word " disqualification" for anything. Therefore I don't believe a judge could kick a dog out of the ring because it has a small spot of black on it. The AKC sells a large volume book which has all the stardards of all the breeds registered with the AKC.

At the end of most of the standards written for each breed is "DISQUALIFICATION" and they list the ones the judges should look for. There is no disqualifciation listed for the Irish Setter. I stand by what I said in my previous post. I don't believe a judge could kick a Irish Setter out of the ring for a spot of black. Might not put it in the ribbons, but he couldn't point to any rule against it.

I know it is deceiving the way it is written. We had a lady complain to the ISCA in the Memo magazine about 10 years ago that she had been behind a dog in the ring that had a spot of black on its hock and the judge put the dog up. She said she thought the judges should have kicked it out of the ring.

She was informed by the "powers that be" that she was incorrect as our standard had no disqualifcation against black, but that it was undesireable only.

JMHO , Loma and Red Friends

[ursula wilby]

Loma, we do have some US judges on this site, dont we?
It would be interesting what they would say about it...but then it looks as if you already have an answer from the Memo magazine.
But thats the way it is...standards are written and THEN interpreted by differant people...I read the text the way Londa does.
Which need not be the way it was meant to be read...:-)

[Loma I. Clark]

Yes, I wish some of the judges would respond as to what they would do with a Irish Setter with black on it if it were in their ring.

Loma