Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[Carmel Murphy]

I agree with you Lar!! Setters should not be bred just for shows! ! And I train all my own dogs, as training is more about teaching the handler than the dog;o)) Sending a dog away for training is not the best way to teach either dog or handler!!

[Margaret Sierakowski]

If you lived in the UK you might see it differently. In Ireland your field trial season is more extended and trials are held at weekends, and Ireland is a small country
In the UK grouse and partridge trials are organised in four blocks totalling around 8 weeks. Would you be able to get eight weeks off work each year to do field trials? And could you afford to live in hotels all that time, while paying somebody else to look after the rest of your dogs at home, as well as the cost of travel, entries and club memberships?

Its a system that began back in the days when people who field trialled setters and pointers were from the aristocracy or at least gentlemen with private means

Also when you get older , you may not be quite so fit and mobile
Having a dog trained and handled by somebody else , doesnt mean that they do all the work, you will do the basics in the first year yourself, and then the dog spends only part of the year with the handler, probably February to April, and June to September, the rest of the time the dog is home with you, and you carry on with it, training and maintaining what it has learned

Another factor in the UK is that trials tend to be dominated by a small group of semi professional handlers and triallers, which is hard for a novice handler to break into

Its a different scene in Ireland,where field trialling is a lot more democratic , triallers come from all walks of life,and it is geared to people who have to earn a living during the week, and most people train their own dogs.But even in Ireland, some triallers who have demanding jobs rely on having some of the training done by a paid trainer

And it is quite common for people who have shooting dogs to send them away to be professionally trained, if they dont have time to do it themselves

[Cheryl Gorey]

Thanks Margaret, it was interesting to read the differences in the UK and Irish field trial programmes.

[colette tuite]

I am sorry Iar that i disagree with your comments that it is easier to train a field dog than training a dog for a show.All a show dog is required to do is run at a steady pace around a ring and an up and down and to stand in the position you put him.I have been a working girl all my life and working in the city of London i got 20 days holiday a year .You only were able to take 2 weeks at any one time.That meant that i had to take my holidays to attend field trials and/or train my dogs on birds as i live in the south of England.I was very fortunate that a game keeper let me have use of the moor to do my training some 366 miles from my home.I would have done my basic training at home but needed to put all the training i had done in the context of the moorland enviroment with grouse and their young.The keeper said we had to be off the moor at 12 so all training would have to be done from daylight to 12.The dogs had to learn about moorland sheep running on heather and the burn area which is quite hard under foot for the dogs.They had to learn how to read the wind ,how to point and produce birds.Later they would learn about running with a brace mate and not to respond to other peoples whistles,and backing the gun shot etc.As Margaret points out it is a big commitment that is required perhaps not so much if you only have one dog! I sometimes went down to Exeter where i was taken under the umbrella of the Gordon setter enthusiasts in Cornwall and Devon who ran their dogs on Dartmoor,because i had bought a working Gordon setter from Ireland.This was again a 4 hour drive for me .If you do not have the facilities and exposure to birds to train your dog then you cannot train your dog.A simple run around a cul de sac will train a show dog!

I once left my working pointer with his breeder who just happen to be professional trainers.He had already wun awards at trials but i had realised he was moving in on game and needed steadying .All i wanted the trainer to do was get Freddy to drop to wing.I was really upset leaving him behind when i finished the trials and was going to pick him up at the autumn trials some 5 weeks later.When i picked him up he still hadnt learnt to drop to wing and further more had developed a figure of eight style of quartering which he had not shown before!!!!!

[kristi schrittwieser]

Eva,
I did notice that when I looked at the pictures. To me they still look more like the American show dogs then the original field dog from Ireland. They definately look like they have a much more similar head, less fringe and shorter ears. They look lower to the ground. I did notice a few with longer feathering. Over all I feel the dog is very different from the original dog. I don't see this dog able to run the field like a hunting dog. I am a hunting dog fan so I am going to sway that way. However I have seen some beautiful show dogs. It is a matter of opinion. I guess I am not the one to admire bench dogs any longer. But I used to. I could care less if a dog is show quality. I know longer go to Westminster dog show in NY. I used to go until I became more informed about the AKC and where they get their money. Their association with puppy mills in the US has completey turned me away from them. As I said, last year they made 4 million dollars off of puppy mill registrations. This enables them them to pay there rent on Madison Ave, which is almost 1 million a year. It pays all their employees and probably helps them with the big Westminster show. In other words they are a cash machine. They attend auctions and events on dog breeding in Missouri. Missouri has the largest amount of mills in the US. They have over 2000 puppy mills. So basically any one can register their dogs with AKC. It coukd be one Lab with cancer and one with thyroid problems who breed. The mill owner can ask for papers. AKC gets their $30.00 from the mill owner and then another $25.00 from the people who buy the puppies. Even though they are sick dogs they are still able to get opapers. Yet when a breed can no longer work and hunters work so hard to bring the breed back they are disqualified from AKC. Why should I pay attention to any of their breed standars. People are forced to get involved with them to be a part of their events. Just like the Border Collies as I mentioned before.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Again other then the tail don't see much of a difference.

Irish dog.

http://www.ardoon.com/irishchamp2003.htm

http://www.brophysirishsetters.com/Dogs%20on%20Point/Pages/Image35....

http://www.ukbirddogs.com/kate.htm

[kristi schrittwieser]

Here is a field trial in Europe. I think these dogs are gorgeous. It has a great video of the dogs running.

[Ossian]

I am not sure I get your point in these illustrations?

[kristi schrittwieser]

Ossian,
Were you referring to my illustrations.

[Ossian]

yes you had an article on "Ardoon" a twelve oclock high tail the Brophy article and the UKdogs vid. I am probably being thick I just wasnt seeing what you were trying to say

[kristi schrittwieser]

Hi Ossian,
The pictures showed that Irish and American field dogs look a lot like. With the exception of the American high tail which came from the english setter they are very similar. If I look at the show dog in both America and Europe I see a big difference After owning a field dog it is hard for me to watch all the setters in the show ring. I get sick to be honest. They absolutely do not look like hunting dogs. The GS's, Vislas, Pointers, Britneys all look sleek and like they can run. But I feel the setters don't look right. Even their gate looks weird to me. Again I feel if a dog is a hunting dog it should not be so large, have a lot of coat, long ears and a big head. If the dog is a sporting dog then that should be the dog shown. Why are the hunting english or gordan setters shown. They are beautiful and look very functional. I feel people would go crazy over these dogs. Hunting setters of all types are beautiful. I had people asking and commenting on my setter all the time. Even when she was old.

Thanks,
Kristi

[Ossian]

got you now thanks Kristi