Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[JOANNE]

Blimey Melinda don't hold back :) I'm looking forward to meeting you one day !!!!!!!!!

[Melinda Auld]

Someone had to be brave enough to say it. I'm tired of pussyfooting around. I'm sure I'll be in the poo now. Oh well... ;-)

[JOANNE]

Hey Melinda don't worry after my caption above I am sure you will not be on your own but it had to be said.

[Pat Aldridge]

No-one can shoot you for speaking the truth, you know - you're too far away LOL!

[Pat Aldridge]

Melinda, how delightfully succinct - I agree with you!

[Cheryl Gorey]

I agree!

[eva ciechonska]

Jo, My apologies, I didn't know that you had a combination of Kirkavagh and American lines as well.........will comit this to my brain.
Melinda, I agree with you too!!!!!!

[Cassie Allen]

I have only been showing for 15 year my first girl I took in the ring I was told she was too old fashon to finish in the US, and she never did, not because she could not but because she hated it. She would have rather been inthe field then the show ring so we did and she finished her field championship. Her daughter I was told would never finish in the show ring she was as I read very close to breed standard as it was writed. I finished her in the field first then went to the show ring it was not easy but we did finish her in theer also. We had to find judges the looked at structure and movement first, coat she never carried a lot of it, and the judge that gave her the final points did not even notice all she saw was that girl floating around the ring. She is our first home bred Dual Champion and a cross of show and field line in the US.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Cassie why are you crossing show and field lines. Who is giving you field lines. Isnt that against the rules. How can you argue setters if you are crossing lines.

[Cassie Allen]

There are no rule! I breed AKC dogs to AKC dogs. When I first started I was at a field trial talking to a good friend of mine (now) and was telling him what I wanted to do he said I would get dogs not good in show or field. Yes the first generation was much stronger in the field than the show ring but structure was coming back to the middle. My breeding program is not just crossing field and show dogs I line bred the first gereation on some strong field line and dual lines then I have out crossed for the next 2 to 3 generation with only proven show line that I know point naturally and strong. The most important thing I have learned in all of this is that you have to breed point to point if you want that litter to point. I am not talking about just the one lucky pup that happens to have point or as I call it the needle in the hay stack I am talking about every pup in the litter.

[kristi schrittwieser]

Cassie,
I know your dogs. They are good dogs. I will not mention names but people who own bench dogs have asked me if I knew anything about your dogs. I even saw one of your dogs winning and posted it on this site. Brophey is big in the AKC. He runs tons of dogs and I am sure he is happy to give you some of his big field trial blood. My dogs pedigree had Brophey in it. I also commented on this site that I thought many hunters would be willing to sire dogs with bench dogs if the AKC would allow them to register their dogs. But if you are breeding with Bropheys dogs and other field lines then your dog is part field. You are being hypocritical. Eventually your dogs tails will be high and racing like maniacs also. I did not know your dog was a mix. No wonder it was a duel champ. It is not fair to say a bench dog can compete and hunt against a field dog if it is a mix of both. So you were angry about my post about the red dogs abilities to hunt and how hunters prefer this yet you take blood from field dogs? I don't quite understand.

[Cassie Allen]

Even the first generation did not have high tails and nothing since then has. The high tail is man made. If it was not then why do most dogs outside the US not carry it? I have been told by many field people that they can fix that in my dogs no "problem". I did not go any further with that conversation.

My dogs have plenty of run and always have, I did not have mixed dogs I have AKC registered Irish setters and I chose to bring the 2 extremes together to get a better dog, as I see it. In the show ring in the US the dog have too much angle and the field dogs do not have enough both do not have the proper structure to do there job. Neither one are following the written standard. I have not bred back to an field only line in 3 generations I have chose to us a male from Norway without any American bloodlines in there pedigree. And love what I have gotten.

There are many lines out there that are still and always will be dual registered(Both AKC and FDSB registered) Brophy being one of them, I also know many show only lines that keep there dogs Dual register and compete in the American field trials.

I am also a FT judge and have seen many dogs run I judge a dog on intensity not if the head is high and the tail is high. I have judge with people that only see the head and tail and think it is the perfect point and it is nice looking but so is the lower points. As long as the dog is pointing with there complete body. I have also judged with people that say they like that dog because he is animated in his run. Well he is only animated because he is not built correctly and has to work harder to move through the field with more bounce. On the other side I judged a dog that won its class at the national show, out in the field it had no run because of it hackney gait and it could not run through the fields.

I have had the debate with a show person about this same topic so to speak this person did not think my bloodlines where good enough to breed to a bitch that she bred and she never will change. Kennel blindness is a bad thing for this breed, field and show people need to step back read the standard and look at there dogs as the standard is written not as they perceive it to there dogs. If people can not see there flause they can not fix them.

I do not see this as a field v's show line this is about what is write for our dogs the breed that we love.