a topic

[Dušan Rauški]

It seems that nobody wish to start a discussion here, and I see some well known breeders who I’m sure have a lot to say about Irish setter.
Let’s start like this… question for all off course: Which dogs do you think left the greatest impact in modern history on the breed in general (or in your country) and why?

[Susan Russell]

There are still Norwegian Irish Setter pedigrees that do not have American field type dogs in them. Not saying this is good or bad, but important to distinguish. Of course I have a vested interest in this information! LOL! Saeterelva's Russell JH is at my house! I did not go to Norway to find American dogs, I can breed to them easily here in North America if I wish, but I did go to obtain the very good dual ability and type that the fanciers there have worked very hard to breed. I was highly impressed at the type and ability of the dogs with little of the American Irsh/red setter blood in them. This is not to say that the ones with American field Irish blood in them are not nice dogs as well, but of a different type again. I was very impressed with the ability of the dogs there and impressed at the seriousness of the Irish fanciers I met in keeping the breed true to its heritage as a hunting dog.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Hi Susan !
Is KUROPATKA AEROFLOT in Russell's pedigree ? That was my kennel name before marriage;-)))
I exported "Aero" with full prices in the field and water tests to Norway in 1994. He came from an outstanding litter with all dogs excellent exterieur + all dogs HD A + all dogs merits on Field trials including one FTCh.
As far as I know, nowadays his bloodline (mostly via his son LAUVASENS JEGER, who is SH + FTCh) has been quite pur 'european' until know. But those US-free dogs are below 10% in Norway.

Regards
Christiane
P.S.: Kuropatka is russian for..partridge;-))

[Susan Russell]

Interesting, what an amazing thing to find you here! Yes he is in Russell's pedigree which can be viewed here: http://www.geocities.com/russell_irish_setters/norrussell.html I tried to copy the pedigree and paste it to this post, but it would not work. Russell's dam is a Lauvasens Jager daughter. I went to this litter for a puppy and that season it was the ONLY litter in Norway with no American blood - this litter was bred by Monica and Oivind Berger - Kennel Saeterelva. I am not sure it is a good thing to have so much American field Irish blood throughout the pedigrees in Norway now, but then I am a small voice. I saw many wonderful dogs there, but could see the influence in body type, colour, and size creeping in... We have our first litter by Russell on the ground and I can hardly wait to see how they look and work. He is quite an intense dog to live with, but oh so very cooperative, and very controllable. There are a great many pups to look at - he sired 16! YIKES! I would love to talk more about your knowledge of these pedigrees. Do you know anything of Melmount Aurva who is Sperrin Treat's Dam? I have been unable to trace further than her.

[Susan Stone]

This is a fascinating discussion. How old are these pups and have you posted pics yet? II assume your aim is good workers with good bone & substance... ? Some of the workers I have seen - some french breeding and some italian bred english setters I have seen are so small and fine you't assume they were crossed with whippets. Ooops, sorry:-))
The old Sulhamsteads had good body and bone judging by the photos I've seen. Also a photo of a Moanruad dog of years ago (book Pointers & Setters by Derry Argue) looks handsome. Is this type still around?

[Susan Russell]

The pups are just four weeks old. They are in Ohio - I have co-bred this litter with a friend Cassie Allen. The Dam is Can Ch Mythodical Russell's Reba. She is a daughter of my show bred dog BISS Can Am Ch Cairncross Russells Talisman, out of Am FC Mythodical Runnymeade Rip who currently has 9 AKC show points including a major. Rip is a beautiful, moderate, sound of mind and body, female who was extremely easy for Cassie to break out and run in field trials; Rip is the product of a mix of show and field bred dogs. Reba's sire Murphy has sired only two litters but has produced nice dogs in both litters who have field ability and are of bench type. Murphy himself has been hunted, and can run broke, but is not always quite as easy to keep broke. I hope this year to hunt test him - at nearly nine years of age he is still sound enough to run. Our goal is to produce a consistent line of working Irish Setters who are still of a type that can compete in the show ring. Our Irish field bred dogs here in North America tend to be very small and fine - though there are exceptions - and few of our show bred dogs are tested sufficiently to really know what they possess as far as true field ability. Add to that our trials tend to favour a snappy dog who stands tall with a high tail, and our show rings tend to favour extremely excessive coat and angulation, and it is a tall order. There are a few people in North America still working towards dual Irish - one is Wendy Czarnecki who is a member of Exclusively Setters as well - and we are thankfully approaching the task from different angles so hopefully we will produce a broad gene pool from which to move forward. I think the task is to keep body, bone, substance, and size while still keeping a dog who has the ability to show good ground speed, endurance and intensity. Coats are a constant issue - to have a lovely, correct textured coat on a dog often means they do not have the excessive coat volume so favoured over here in the show ring. Anyway it will be interesting to see what type of pups we get and what ability they have from this extreme outcross breeding, and then the challange will be to incorporate the good pups in to the breeding program from there...always fun!

[Christiane Lohmann]

Hey, congrats to your puppies ! 16 is quite something;-))) Yep, that will be interesting to see, how they develop. We had the vice-president of Norwegian IS club down here, who wanted to visit 'the family', as he owns Saeterelvas Lady in red, who became ShowChampion recently. She is another Lauvasens Jeger daughter and granddaughter of my Aeroflot.
She had two litters by now and both had outstanding quality in show and field. Pure old scandinavian blood.

About MELMOUNT AURVA, I remember that I telephoned the owner who imported her daughter SPERRIN TREAT in the pre-internet period,-)))
Aurva is a daughter of
FTCH STAR JET KCSB 0092BP (Moanruad Stardust - FTCH Ballybay Jet) ex
SILVERHILL SHEENA KCSB 4365BK (Red Kylie - Sallanara Little Tish).

Best regards
Christiane

[Susan Russell]

Thank you so much Christiane! That is just the information I was looking for! I have sent an invitation to Monica to join, not sure if she has the time, but we shall see. I can hardly wait to go back to visit Norway again, I really enjoyed it and met so many knowledgeable folks who really are active with their dogs. I shall keep you posted on the pups, it will be interesting to watch them.

[Alenka Pokorn]

Connemara's Patrick was also a great dog. Lovely temperament as well.

Love
Alenka

[Dušan Rauški]

Thank you all for participating. I thought this would be an interesting question since we all have some favorites in our minds and our own perspective of contribution to the breed. And all opinions are welcome of course it is a great way to get to know each other, don’t stop now.

Greetings
Dusan

[Henk ten Klooster]

The greatest impact in modern history for European showbred Irish setters has no doubt Sh Ch Kerryfair Night Fever (born 1979). Quite a few Irish setters have nearly all male lines back to this dog, bred by M. Chorley (UK).

Like most other male lines in our breed, Night Fever is a direct male descendant from Dutch Castor (born 1901) after being exported to the UK renamed Clancarty Rhu.

Knight Fever goes back to this dog on countless lines and directly (father-son etc) via: Sh Ch Sowerhill Sahib, Sh Ch Wendover Jeeves, Sh Ch Wendover Ballymoss, Sh Ch Wendover Vagabond, Ch Wendover Beggar, Beau of Wendover, Kerry of Wendover, Ch Padriac of Matsonhouse, Ch Grellan of Matsonhouse, Sh Ch Shaun of Matsonhouse, Sh Ch Rheola Bryn, Don Sancho, Rheola Maro, Ch Rheola Toby, Ch Clancarty Rhu.

Castor was a story apart, being named The Grand Old Man because of his age and according to his owner Ingle Bpeler (Rheola) able to climb ladders like a cat, especially when bitches were in season.....

As for European working lines, Christiane already mentioned quite a few of the best of Scandinavian countries and Germany. Especially the Norwegian club NISK has an excellent data base. Castor (Clancarty Rhu) is also -but not so prominent- in those lines. Probably the direct male line to Ch Palmerston who was put up in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York after death, described as extinct by experts, is still alive there.

So from lineage you'd say its Castor beating them all. Ofcourse with some question marks around this success, as all other male families in his days most extinct now is not healthy for the breed we know now.....

From literature greatest of them all is Garryowen. He's portrayed in "Ulyssus" as "so human he could almost talk" written by James Joyce. A century after his life, in the nineties, Ulyssus was chosen as novel of the century.

Henk ten Klooster.