International Irish Setter Club

[Susan Stone]

At the following link you can read the minutes of the International Irish Setter Club. I do not know anything about this club except a bit of hearsay. I do see there is a swiss representative...
I wonder if anyone can tell me more about this club and what their position is legally when it comes to discussing breed matters with the FCI?

see http://www.setter-pointer.ch/Proces_verbaux_Clubinternationnaux.htm - the minutes of the last meeting - in english!

[Susan Stone]

I guess so...;-) Had not thought that of course you would find more under said link...

But that was is not really meant to be the theme of this post...;-)

[Christiane Lohmann]

Yep, late Rembrandt Kersten phoned me some time ago and asked for support to found this European Irish Setter Club. He also wanted the scandinavian countries in the boat. But as there seems to be much politics in this story, nothing happened and this club is working quietly if at all. For the same reason the European Championship for Irish Red Setters is performed very silent and not in Germany.

Maybe it is time to wake them up and send them new members, ready to participate with some IS from totally different bloodlines in Int. events... I am sure that not only Germany could very well organise a big trial, but Poland as well and leave alone the scandinavian cultures with their huge trials of highest niveau.

[Susan Stone]

My worry is, if the swiss representative says 'this was decided by the International Setter Club' is this decision binding for the national club and it's members? I ask because I know what powers the 'International English Setter Club' has in this respect... There decisions seem to carry more weight than the FCI...

[Susan Stone]

I quote Leen: An European ISC is to be applauded if the membership is the national Irish setter clubs. Now it is a club of a few like-minded trying to impose their ideas on all others without any legal authorization.

This is exactly what I am worried about.

Thanks Leen for stating the above guidelines.

As Ireland is listed as a member it would seem possible that agreements met within the EISC would then be imposed by the IKC toward the FCI... without consultation with any of the other national ISCs. A worrying thought.

[Leen De Leebeeck-Van Genechten]

had a quick look at it, the representative for Holland is not in the committee of the Dutch Irish setter club.
If the club is not made up out of the national breed clubs, membership to this club can cost your breeder's and judginglicense in Belgium (since it is a non-FCI recognised club).
The EISC can, in itself never be recognised by the FCI (who only recognises national organisiations, which on their turn recognise the national breed clubs)
The CISA (interantional English setter club) is made up out of representatives sent by the national breed club. Officially it has only advisory powers, but in some countries the national breed clubs follow the advices given by the CISA. The CISA only works in field-trial matters not on show.

As for I quote: "The E.I.R.S.C. will prepare a document insisting on absolute respect for standard height measurements. " and "of up-dating their judges to make sure that standards are respected" , As far as I know, as an FCI judge, we use the FCI-standard to find the dog that's closest to this standard in all points, not only in height. And who's going to say that shoulderheight is more/less important than angulation, than movement, than type, than ...
That's for the judge to decide. he/she must look for the 'total package' that best resembles the description of the standard

To me it looks that this EIRSC is indeed, I quote again "a club of a few like-minded trying to impose their ideas on all others without any legal authorization", but if they will be made up out of representatives of the national breed clubs, it can be an international platform to discuss certain subjects and maybe to advice national breed clubs.

[Susan Stone]

Thank you Leen for your reply. Of course as you say the FCI only recognizes the national organization which in it's turn recognizes the breed clubs. So a direct recognition of the EIRSC by the FCI would seem impossible.

I wonder if we will hear more about this organization in the future. Actually a platform where all national breed clubs could discuss breed issues would seem a good idea. But it should cover all aspects of the breed and not just certain issues.

[Christiane Lohmann]

Well, the International Pointer Club, the Intern. GS Club SGCI, Int. ES Club all work very well and have huge influence...representing the single national clubs for the breed internationally.
Why shouldn't the IS follow the same way ?

[Christiane Lohmann]

Yep, we had that discussion up and down about size in Germany.
But it is FCI (FCI standard kommission) who says, if a standard has no ban for size, it must be judged as 3 % plus/minus is tolerance and 6% plus/minus is to disqualify.
In details:
For IS:
Males: 58 - 67 cm is standard
So 56 - 69 cm can still get excellent
Below 56 and above 69 has to be given lower grades
Below 54 cm and above 71 cm they MUST be DISQUALIFIED.

Females 55 cm to 62 cm is standard
53 to 64 cm can still get excellent
Below 53 and above 64 cm has to be given lower grades
Below 51 and above 66 cm has to be disqualified.

I think we have such a big scala in size where IS have to fit in, especially when compared with GS (point 62/66cm) ...it should not be a problem to breed, own, show, love IS of the size which is wanted in the standard.
If one refuses to follow the standard in this point, why should the next one listen to colour or movement or head shape etc...

[Leen De Leebeeck-Van Genechten]

My problem with the 'size' popping up all the time is that in those discussions ONLY size matters, not breed type, head shape etc. As said, people start to measure and forget that the 'red specimen' should not only be between 55 & 70cm but it should also be an Irish setter! The standard is a description of an ideal Irish setter and we should try to work to the whole package, of course including height, but also all the rest.

I find it very strange that in the starting rules of the EIRSC size is taken into account, but not breed type, colour, bone, angulations,etc.
Of course judges shoudl follow the standard, but not ONLY when it comes to size..

[Christiane Lohmann]

But maybe it is good to start with something so clear as for example "size" and get a common level in that point first ?
Sure it is only ONE aspect of the standard, but if you look for example at the IS stud dog list of Czech Republic, 10 years ago the smallest male was 68 cm and was regarded as a kind of dwarf. The others well up to 72 cm.

When a clearly measurable part of the IS standard is followed everywhere, it is time to get a bottom line into next thing like angulations with all discussions, as there are more interpretations possible.

In size are no interpretations...and still it is not followed.

[Susan Stone]

I know a lot of breeds that would come under those measurements... it is not the first critera to the question 'is it a setter?'. That is why I dislike the way the discussion on standard is always reduced a discussion on size.

But this is NOT the theme of the thread - we've been through this theme in detail before...

Christina, you say the International Clubs for the other setter breeds have a huge influence and you consider this a good thing. You also ask why the IS should not follow. I agree ffully with Leen about the aims that an international club should follow and at the moment I do not get the impression that this is the aim of th EIRSC. My (limited) experience with the International English Setter Club is that the interest lies in field trails only and there is no interchange between the breed's homeland and this international club. If we maintain that the FCI standard is the one to be followed, then why does the International English Setter Club give out different recommendations?

As you can see the committee of the EIRSC is limited to mostly men with a main interest in working setters. I am not opposed to working setters but it is not the ONLY aspect of the breed that needs covering.
Looking at this list you see that ALL interests are represented and although the discussions may run emotionally high sometimes, in the end each of us can accept that the other may have a different - but also valid - opinion. I fear this may not be the case in the EIRSC.

[Henk ten Klooster]

Most precious and very vulnerable now is the very raison d'etre of Irish setters: their working instinct.It needs protection as a living heritage of centuries goneby.

The reason it needs protection is numbers. A large majority in IS is responsible for the fact that survival of a working Irish setter is in most cultures in danger.

This large majority loves the breed the lazy way, by only showing.

Putting the future of Irish setters in their hands would be something like pissing against the Nightwatcher of Rembrandt van Rijn.