Why do people breed animal species (like the dog - canis lupus familiaris) without the basic knowledge?

[Petra Kasznár]

THE DOG:
"Modern dog breeds show more variation in size, appearance, and behavior than any other domestic animal. Within the range of extremes, dogs generally share attributes with their wild ancestors, the wolves. Dogs are predators and scavengers, possessing sharp teeth and strong jaws for attacking, holding, and tearing their food. Although selective breeding has changed the appearance of many breeds, all dogs retain basic traits from their distant ancestors. Like many other predatory mammals, the dog has powerful muscles, fused wristbones, a cardiovascular system that supports both sprinting and endurance, and teeth for catching and tearing."

If the above text is really the description of the "dog" than in some Irish Setter Breeder's opinion the Irish Setter doesn't belong to this race. So please let me know to which animal race the Irish Setter belongs to or is it still an animal? Or a sweet plush toy?

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I completely agree with you , Ursula. Setters were bred as bird dogs, with the prey instinct which leads them to hunt and kill. It is only training that gets them to point and wait for the gun to kill the bird. Most of my puppies and younger dogs will hunt, chase AND kill if they can catch the bird (or rabbit or other small mammal). Its not unknown for setters that are running loose to chase and injure or sheep. I keep all my younger dogs, especially the male dogs, well away from sheep
My quietest and gentlest IRWS bitch recently went on a completely unexpected killing spree among the chickens on my daughter's farm, OK she shouldnt have done it, but she is a bird dog, the grandchildren shouldnt have let her out with the chickens
Dogs are regularly trained and used to track down shot deer that have not been killed outright, more often the continental pointing breeds, but setters can do it too. Its only humane to find an injured but still moving deer and finish them off
To my mind, setters that have completely lost their prey drive are no longer setters, it just needs channelling and controlling

[Susan Stone]

I think many of us would be suprised at how much wolf is still hidden away in our couch potato...
Certainly bringing down a injured deer is best and safest done with a trained dog who knows what he is doing. But maybe this is not the site to show such videos...

Most of our pet dogs never learn this kind of behaviour as it is not required of them. But given the chance to learn when young, I believe even the most docile pet dog can kill. This does not make it an aggressive animal, he is doing what is in his nature: to kill his prey. No wonder chasing sheep is a big problem...

As to grabbing fur or feather: Puppies who never encounter fur or feather during early socialisation may have a problem retrieving birds later in life. I am not sure how much is genetic and how much is missed oportunity during the first crucial period.

[Dee Rance]

I also agree with what Ursula said, BUT I think the thing here is the Video the shear pleasure and obvious pride that was derived from the dreadful demise of the poor deer, is I think the thing that most of us were disgusted with, I think that we are all grown ups, (well most of us are, there are a few teenagers on this site, and that is why that kind of video should not be shown,) we all know that life doesn't last forever and things die, all be it by man's hand or by nature, its the way that they die, and the manor in which the people around that particular demise act, I personally feel that we should show respect for the life given up, not take a pleasure out of it, would people want to go to a slaughter house to see how 'our dinner' comes about I don't think so, having done that for many years it is not to be recommended. Nor is showing that kind of film....

[Michaela]

Sorry I didnt see that video - did I understand it right: a diseased roe being tracked down by your Irish Setter and killed?
If he did: great job! The rules for a hunting dog (setter) are very simple: dont follow or kill a healthy animal (only searching and pointing), but if there is a diseased animal (maybe is touched by a car or is not accurately been killed by a shot) a hunting dog must help us to kill that animal as fast as possible, and maybe by itself. In germany I know of some setters wich been trained for that special job (following blood-scent and tracking down animals) and did a very reliable job.

[Petra Kasznár]

Thanks Michaela, nice to see people who know what is hunting about! Seems that people are blind and can not even read, because on the video it can be seen the roe deer was not alive anymore when we arrived there and for those who are not able to make a difference between dead and live animals, I also wrote it down some comments before.

[Christiane Lohmann]

I didn't manage to see it either and I am sorry to find this matter so disturbing. Prey drive MUST be high in hunting dogs. Otherwise they are no longer hunting dogs. Problem with some IS nowadays, they are too soft to be good hunters. It starts with fear of winged game and ends with simply detest of any fur or feather. Give them tin food ?
Prey drive is difficult to give back to a strain, when it has disappeared and I regard most IS who still have it as valuable for the existiance of the breed as a hunting dog. You can stop a dog or calm it down, but never push it much, when he refuses to do. NEVER was the IS the soft dog, that only walks around in sunshine and picks up carefully dead birds and brings it to his master ! Even if you minimize the task for this breed to ONLY FIND birds (which is not true), you need a hell of a devil of a tough dog to perform in that job ! Joyrunners and sunshine lovers are hopeless !

It is not the right place to discuss the creation of ouf meat on the table. I am very aware of the fact that EC still pays extra money to ship scottish sheep to greek slaughter houses to balance the market. And the pigs that arrive an the big westgerman slaughterhouse have never seen sunlight, are stuffed with antibiotics and got socalled betablocker to arrive alive. So I take hats off to all who pay much respect to creatures and think about their life and death, which are always combined. There is no poorer animal than the domesticated ones for food reason !

And aside that, we have many roads in Germany. Many times roedeers get hurt and break their legs and run away in the woods. No chance to shoot them. You need one or two good dogs to chase them and take them down as fast as possible. It would be cruel to have this job done by a soft dog, who only follows and follows and chases and chases. It is the task for each genuine two and fourlegged hunter to hunt fand kill as fast and painless as possible, when necessary. I am sure that Petras video was showing nothing else.

[Petra Kasznár]

Thank you very much Christiane for sharing your opinion!

[Anna Kazimierowicz]

Petra,
good you remove this video from the site, I didn't mention that earlier, but did you consider which part of music you have attached to film, and what this music (wrote to the poem) means.
I saw video and now read your's explanation and all comments. I have only 1 question:
1) why didn't you let dogs to eat that roedeer (after all, dogs are still wolves, even mentioned by you chihuahua has hunting instinct).

[Christiane Lohmann]

;-))) We eat roedeer all ourself and give only ribs, tummyskin, throat and bones to the dogs...they simply LOVE it and...what is more natural than this ?

[Kristina Brannlund Westin]

What is suprising me is that some people who didn´t even have seen this video, seem to be okey with this kind of treatment on this innicent animal!
Here in the North part of Sweden we usually keep our trackingdogs in a long leash, follows them to the injured animal and than we are ending their suffering our selves.
Never heard of someone who letts their dogs loose and letting them do the job for you as a hunter.

[Dee Rance]

I agree Kristina

[Christiane Lohmann]

Surely this is also in Sweden necessary, when the wounded animal rises from his bed and tries to escape from the trackdog in lead. Or turns round and attacks dog and hunter. You MUST have a bigger dog than Dachshund to stop them. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. And it is ALWAYS the dogowner who has the single right to shoot, as it is dangerous for the dog as well, when a shot is fired while he is trying to stop the animal. At least in central european parts it is like this. No matter if you shoot with 'hagler' or 'bullets'. More than one dog has been accidentally shot, while doing this hard work. Several dogowners prefer to use a knife instead. But you need good nerves to do that. Shooting from a distance is much nicer and anonymous...but doesn't help in situations like this. Remember, nobody WANTS to have a car accident with an animal or shoot it with a bad shot that does not kill. But think carefully what is best to do.


P.S.: Kristina: I am no vegetarian. Please tell me, is it better to eat an animal that has been kept in a stable, stuffed with drugs, unartificial food, standing on concrete, pushed into a lorry at six months of age, transported for hours with dying members of the same species around, unload into an awful smelling yard at a slaughter house and having the anxious noises of other animals in the ears and the smell of blood in the nose as a last vision before their life is ended ? Are these animals not innocent ?