Did the breed change or not since the sixties?

[Henk ten Klooster]

Did the Irish setter breed change in half a century or not? In a topic elsewhere there is a statement  the breed did not change in fifty years.

 

What is your opinion? Did the breed change yes or no, if yes in what aspects (conformation, health, character, working capacities)? Can you document your opinion? Same for no changes in your opinion, can you document that?

 

Here is a kick off with an article on the Derrycarne Irish red setters, bred by Maureen Mc Keever, published in 2003 in The Leitrim Guardian, written by Kevin Mc Manus. Her activities cover a large part of the period mentioned in the statement. She bred more key Irish setters in both show and working nowadays Irish setters. Would these still be able to win - show and/or work?

 

Because there was some interest in Derrycarne history, on request a story is added on a daughter of Derrycarne Harp - Ailean O'Cuchulain. Its entitled Devils Dearest, written as a tribute.  On request as well a story Hartsbourne Flame was added. She was a shower of hail and littersister to IRCH Derrycarne Martini. 

[eva ciechonska]

Henk, If you can put your hands on this shower of hail special then I am sure it would be of great interest to everyone.
Melinda, I haven't seen the girly since she was a junior, she would now be just over 2 years old, will see what I can do.
Christine, have seen the Stubbs, but as for who was first I believe the established view is the R&W.

[Christiane Lohmann]

A pure red setter was painted by Van Dyke in 1635.
Another dark red setter with small white blaze on forhead and chest can be found on the painting "Huntsmen setting out from southill" by Stubbs 1760-1770

During the great famine the pure red dog was the favorite dog of fowlers.

But this is again the question, who was first ...egg or hen.

[Christiane Lohmann]

*big ironical smile on*
YES, so it would make life for a breeder much easier, if he breeds neither show nor hunting dogs, but just dogs as a companion, that are loved all their life long...to be bought by people, who have no idea about the breed, their health, their characteristics etc.
*big ironical smile out*

About the rest: We do have a big fenced yard of 200 qm if we need the dogs to be off our feet. Otherwise late FTCh. Lohmann's Carlotta's favorite place was in the kitchen under the table, as there might be a chance to get some goodies, FTCh. Lohmann's Lawine and Deargban O'Faolain prefer the leather sofa in the living room, joined with their favourite Dachshund and FTCh. Lohmann's Momo can most of the time be found on the bed of our son. Lohmann's Heidi is self declared guard dog and has her pillow in the entrance hall. Canadian Eli is the shadow of my husband and follows him all day long, while my shadow is redandwhite and called Scotty. Three more youngsters are in training now and they are happy to relax when school is over.
If we have no young geese or ducklings, all dogs stroll in and out the house and enjoy the garden (10.000 qm). We have two kids who spend much time with the dogs, especially since they started junior handling.
As there is much game to hunt in Germany and we have the hunting area around our house, we are pretty busy on that and dogs are always included, sometimes before the shot, sometimes after the shot, sometimes only to get some nice pieces to eat.

[Carmel Murphy]

Sounds like your dogs have the best of both worlds;o))

[eva ciechonska]

Christine, good to hear all your FTChs are well looked after, all my ShChs live in similar comfort!!! I hope all the working dogs are kept in the same circumstances, like I hope that the show dogs are.
As for your first paragraph.....you are being facetious. I am talking about breeders of show and working dogs who breed to carry on their line who have to find good pet homes for the puppies they don't keep. What makes you think that we are the only ones who know about the breed, their health, their characteristics. That is so conceited. Pet people do their homework. they do know all about the inherited problems (CLAD, PRA etc), they go on the internet to find out. They come very well prepared. The ball is then in your court, as the breeder, to ensure that who you sell a puppy to is made aware of any gaps in their knowledge and to provide a back up service should things go wrong. We cannot do without good pet homes, they are priceless. We have many Setter owners on this site, who don't work their dogs neither do they show. Read their web pages and see how much of an idea they have "about the breed, their health, their characteristics etc."!!!!!!!!!

[Christiane Lohmann]

I have to find my dictionary...what is facetious ? Hopefully something nice;-)))
I was NOT referring to breeders, who pay enough interest to even join this forum. There are endless breeders with and without homepages, who only talk about puppies, puppies and again puppies. They post pictures of puppies and this is about all you ever hear from them.
More than 50 % of all IS in Germany are from so called non-FCI kennels. They are sold for half price up to normal price to people, who have no idea. People, who believe a bad HD result is a show title. As all those dogs with pedigrees from 'private clubs' are banned from participating on any sorts of trials, they act like in Aesop's tale...the grapes too high...they are sour.
They arrange dog shows in small villages, where best dog is worldwinner, second best european winner, number three is German winner and number four is winner of blue Oskar-or-whatever.

[Margaret Sierakowski]

I have 12 IRWS, some like Polly all working/FT bred, others a mix of show and working. Mostly they live in the house with me, although I have kennels in the barn where they can go if I am out or when bitches are in season, and a dog room in the house where the younger ones sleep in large crates at night.
Polly (FTCh ) sleeps in my bedroom at night and has an armchair in the kitchen

I have only one bitch who doesnt have free run of the house, she came as a rescue, not housetrained, and still has accidents in places where I would prefer that she didnt, beds, carpets etc. She is also rather restless and attention seeking

I have a large secure run at the back of the house, where the younger ones and the rescue bitch spend much of the day. The older and more reliable dogs have free run of a 15 acre field
We have hill ground up the hill at the back of the house, just through the gate and up onto the hill, but as there are not a lot of birds up there, I prefer to drive about 3 miles to a moor where there are always plenty of grouse.
In the summer and autumn we go there several times a week.
Out of season the dogs have to stay on the field around my house where they get as much exercise as they want,, except during lambing season, when nobody goes out unsupervised, or we go to a forest area where the dogs can run freely all the year
I'm at home all the time and enjoy the company of dogs in the house, so the dogs only get kennelled if I'm out for several hours, or there are guests in the house who dont like the dogs around, and occasionally I want a couple of hours peace to concentrate on something without distraction
I think my dogs probably spend more time with me than many show dogs spend with their owners, there are many show dogs whose owners are out at work all day

Like Christiane I dont subscribe to the belief that a working or FT dog will be ruined if it lives in the house.
I have sent several puppies to working homes in Norway and Sweden, and one of the things I like about sending them there is that I know that their working dogs live in the house as part of the family. And thats the norm , not the exception in Scandinavian dog culture. And they have some fantastic field trial dogs!

Our working springers were also family dogs who always lived in the house

[Carmel Murphy]

I think its the best life for any dog(working,pet, show) to live with their family as much as possible!! Margaret, your place sounds like paradise for dogs too;o))

[Margaret Sierakowski]

It is a great place for dogs, thats why I live here. Not so comfortable for humans though, its a pretty primitive and very old stone cottage with no central heating and water pumped up from a spring. really a large dog kennel, with TV, computer and frig!
Reminds me of the descriptions of some of the old pre-revolution Russian kennels on big estates, where the dogs (like Borzois)would share a house with the men who looked after them. Two or more rooms with a huge stove in the middle which heated both the dog rooms and the mens' sleeping area

[eva ciechonska]

Thank you ladies and gents......Margaret....I am moving in with you, after you have installed the central heating!!!!!!
Can I just mention the 'out of work aspect'.......I and many like me worked to keep our dogs in the manner they have always been accustomed to but I made sure my place of work was 15 minutes drive from home so I could come back at lunch time. My dogs were never locked in and had a secure garden to play in when I was out. Now that I am retired they see more of me as I am set up with my trusty drawing board at home. They are still never locked in when I am out.
I have 1400 acres of National Trust heath on which they run every day only 2 miles away and the North Downs way leading to Box Hill passes my fron gate. They have occasionally taken themselves up there when the gate was inadvertantly left open!!!

[Carmel Murphy]

"a large dog kennel,with TV, computer and frig!" Sounds quite like my wee cottage too!! I share my stone cottage (3 rooms) with 5 reds, 1 shepherd and a cat!! I do have 4 radiators and a wood stove(mostly the wood stove heats in winter!!) But its very cosy;o))

[Ossian]

I have central heating and a combi boiler but I would give it all up for the Cabraxch in a minute!!