Littersize

[ursula wilby]

Looking through the photographs on this site, I have seen plenty of large litters, and of course the irish setter normally has large litters. I would like to hear other breeders tell me how they feel about large litters and if there is some culling (I think thats the correct word...I hope it is) of healthy puppies. A few years after I started breeding, I got a litter of 17. I took the litter down to 10 straight away (it was the first litter of that particular bitch and I just thought this was way over the top). She then produced another puppy so the litter ended up being 11 puppies. Plenty of breeders told me I had done the wrong thing and should have let nature take its course. Well I did next time and ended up with 16 puppies. I was fortunate enough that I had another bitch having a false pregnancy at the time with plenty of milk so she took over six of the puppies and all of these grew in to healthy dogs. But that particular excersise taught me never to keep more than a "normal" size litter. My puppies are reared in the house and I normally have no more than one litter a year. I know all my puppies well and they are all housetrained and also trained to respond to a whistle. I put a lot of work into getting the puppies used to dishwashers, vaccumcleaners etc. With 16 puppies, I lost all that contact. It became a matter of feeding, cleaning and falling in to bed at night. All puppies looking alike is bad enough with a litter of 10. With a litter of 16 they just became a mass of milling puppies and I felt I lost out on the important part (for me). The getting to know each puppy as an individual. To recognise each puppies needs. Since then I take each liter down to a size of 10. Mind you, if they are 11 I dont do anything, but never again those huge litters for me! I have (amongst others) come across quite a few stud-dog owners that are NOT happy about this, but I feel that that mostly stems from the fact that they are getting paid per puppy.
So how do you feel about this?
Taking life?
Giving each puppy a better chance?
Ill go for the latter, but I can see the point in both sides.
PS. My largest litter to date has been 18 puppies born.

[Susan Stone]

Hello Ursula,
Our breed does tend to have very large litters! I rarely breed, but when I do I aim at getting my puppies really well socialised from the very start and get them accustomed to noises, smells, visual impressions, people of all size & age, etc etc and admit it is awfully hard work with a litter of ten! I kept written notes on who had been where and done what so as not to miss out on one... So I agree that for a litter larger than 10 this is practically impossible - all the more as they do not go to new homes until they are 9-10 weeks old. But despite this difficulty, I would be extremely reluctant to cull healthy pups and would only do this if the health of the mother or pups made it necessary. It would even be against the rules of the swiss kennel club.
My favourite number of pups is 7... ideal, controlable, not too hard on the bitch or myself;-))

[ursula wilby]

i agree, 7-8 is my favorite too, but standing there with 18 makes you realise you have to do something. And by handfeeding say 8 of them, (even if I was to alternate) do i not lower the quality of the whole litter? But actually what convinced me to cull was the socialising afterwards. I work in the same way as you with puppies. And 10 is just about my limit.

[Carmel Murphy]

Wow those are very large litters!!! In Ireland and England I think around 12 to 14 pups is more average. I have only bred two litters so far and both times Rua had 7 puppies all similar size and all healthy(a nice easy size litter!!) So I have no experience of large litters! Rua will have one more litter next year so hope it is another 7 pups or around that number!! I know breeders who have had large litters and they usually give suppliment feeds to help the bitch with the burden of too many mouths to feed! Dont know anyone who culls puppies! I dont think I could do it!

[ursula wilby]

I did not think I could cull healthy puppies either when I started out. And my present bitches have had a maximum of 11 so that has been ok. I know 18 is not average, but it does happen! And when you are there, you have to do something.

[Henk ten Klooster]

As far as I know the world record for Irish setters in puppies in one litter was 23, in the USA. There is a lot of publications on "records" of IS-litters, numbers varying between 15-20.

I've seen a litter of seventeen pups (with a second mum) grow up in kennels where I used to help and seen them all back ok. But you need a lot of time and energy for that. If you haven't got that time choice is needed. To let "nature" make the choice is an option that takes more time than culling immediately.

In many cases of big litters there were mas more than one mating, even up to three or four. Option: stick to just one. It is also easy to visit the vet and see how many pups are in, so that you know before you see...

Henk ten Klooster.

[ursula wilby]

My 18-litter was from one single mating. I had had a large litter before, so I thought "just once" was the answer...alas it was not!
The NUMBER of puppies (eggs released) is down to the bitch. With a fertile male, there should be enough sperms for about half a village...unless I have misunderstood everything to do with birds and bees.

Also, I assure you that with that big a litter, you dont have to consult a vet to know there are plenty! The dam producing 18 (normal-sized puppies) was almost unable to eat the last couple of weeks. Not surprising. Neither could she sit without sliding backwards. This is all years back now, but even now, each time I mate a bitch I am prepared, just in case. Its not a nice situation, it almost made me give up breeding all together.

Im almost getting cold feet regarding this subject. Will I now be labeled as the "puppy-killer"? Will it be the brick-through-the-window as in the US, where pro-lifers are attacking gynocologists? It is not a happy jolly subject, yet it covers a situation that can arrise with a fertile breed like Irish setters.

[Piret]

I really think I could never kill any puppy. I have lost one puppy when he was 3 days old and still can't forget it. This really empty feeling inside. I know I take it too emotionally, still when my bitch would give birth to 16 healthy puppies then I do what ever it takes to give them all good start in their life. Also I would help puppies mum in every possible way and I would find people who help me (my grandmother is great, I trust her with puppies 100%), I would organize everything. So they all would be socialized, happy etc.
Still I would never call anybody to puppy-killer when they decide to choose the easy way. But generally Irish setters have big litters and you should be ready for that.

[ursula wilby]

The 16puppies I had also grew up healthy and all that, but I felt I had another dam helping out. So for me that was a huge help. I have no relatives like for instance Pirets grandmother that can take over now and then. so it is 100% up to me.
Ending up in a sort of 18-puppy-situation, I would act in the same way, I just keep my fingers crossed I will not have this again.
I have also at close quarters seen a litter of ten Rottweilers that were bottlefed from the word go. Now they all looked a bit on the small side (could of course be the combination...it automatically was blamed on the lack of a mother/fostermother).

[Carmel Murphy]

I dont think anyone would call you puppy killer! You did what you thought was best for you and your situation. I am not sure what I would do unless it actually happened to me! I hope I dont have to make that decision any time soon! I too have to do everything myself although I have good friends who would help if necessary!

[Loma I. Clark]

Culling puppies is something I honestly don't think I could or would do. If I had to stay up 24/7 to help feed them I would, but I could never make the decision to kill a puppy. I would always feel horrible about it and wonder if that one would have been the Best In Show winning dog, or the one the lonely child down the street would have loved to own or the best puppy to send to a pet home.

I understand the reason's some do it, but its not for me, and its pretty much a tabu subject in America.

Loma and Red Friends, USA

[ursula wilby]

Loma, I understand that it is one of those situation where you have to have been there to know how you would react.
The "best puppy in the litter"-thought never enters my head. And of course you try to look for some defect that will make the choosing easier. I can understand that its a tabu subject in the States, I can feel that quite a few subjects are (Im not refering to just dogs here) and there I feel that europeans are generally more straight to the point. And not so much "Have a nice day"-ish. I have been to the US quite a lot and realise that there are boundries you should not cross. But then there are so many things that are differant in the US, and in many ways far worse than culling a litter of newborn puppies. Im not criticising, only noting the differances that become obvious when traveling in the US.
Im going off the point here...but the reason for culling is NOT that I am afraid of the work, its that (to my way of looking at it) I end up giving the huge litter a worse start in life instead of giving a reduced litter the very best.

[ursula wilby]

i would probably leave 12...but thereafter...well, I suppose if they lived outside in a kennelbuilding that would be OK. But they live in the house for all their stay with me and take part in my everyday life. And I train them so that they are used to just about anything that a new home will entail. Perhaps it is being too ambitious that makes it difficult? I only have one litter a year maximum, so its no great production of them. And as I said these huge litters were a long time ago.