Field trialers

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 11, 2011 at 4:32am

Nothing, Larry. I dont have a problem with the field trial dogs, they are fit and functional, and the type has changed very little  since the revival in the 1970s

Its the divergence in type between the show and FT bred ones , and the lack of interest in the show breeders in breeding to maintain function that depresses me

 

 

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 11, 2011 at 7:25am

Again, you have identified a problem. The show breeders will say" All the red and whites go back to the same dogs in Ireland in the 1970s, so they will all still have working ability". But the field trial dogs in Ireland and the Rushfields continued to be bred selectively for working ability, and the show dogs in England have been bredselectively  for looks, with no testing of their working ability over the last 30 years. Peter Moxon used to say that it takes only four generations of breeding purely for looks , and most of the working ability will be gone, although for a while  there will be occasional throwbacks with some working instinct, but long term it just disappears

The funny thing is that show people understand very well that if you want good conformation, you have to breed from dogs with good conformation. But somehow they believe that working ability will survive without actually breeding for it. But it seems almost impossible to get this simple message through, if you want to maintain working ability, you have to breed for it

There is also the belief that that because the dogs still have this ineradicable working instinct that given the opportunity to get near birds, they will work without too much effort on the part of the owner. Thats the other simple message that is so hard to get through, if you want your dog to work, you have to put in hard work, not just a couple of Sundays in a year, but every day, starting with the puppy

Starting with an adult dog already two or three years old is much more difficult than starting with a puppy

 

And Dave I agree, you can have two similar IRWS from the same litter, one will work and another wont , but will still do well in the show ring. But I will predict the one who works is more likely to produce more good working dogs

Neige has a sister Norna who is already an Irish Sh Ch . Polly had a sister Red who was an Irish Sh Ch and worked as a moderately successful shooting bitch

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 11, 2011 at 1:43pm

There are some very successful field triallers in the UK who started in show dogs, got interested in working with their dogs, for a while tried to breed show dogs who could work, and ended up concentrating on field trialling. Colin and Julie Organ started in show pointers, and both are still A list show judges

The O'Driscolls also started in show pointers, Geraldine still shows, Peter now concentrates entirely on his FT dogs

 

The Gaskins in New Zealand also started with show Irish, were determined to prove their show Irish would work and spent several years doing it, but eventually moved into doing only field trialling with working bred dogs

There are also people like the Goutourbes and the Underwoods in English setters , who tend to now have separate lines for showing and trialling. And Mary and Colette Tuite in Irish Setters

The Gordon people are different. They started with show dogs , tried training and trialling their show dogs, and have come round to actively breeding for a dual purpose dog, which they show AND field trial

I dont have any problem with whether people want a dual purpose dog, or a field trial dog, the main thing is , they want a dog which is fit and functional

But there are not that many people who are really successful at breeding, showing and trialling their dual purpose dogs. There are a few on this list like Susan Russell and Susan Stone. Its a hard road to travel, and how many people have the time, money, energy and dedication to do both successfully? Probably easier to concentrate on one thing or the other for most people

And some of the dogs their owners describe as dual purpose are really show dogs who have been trained well, rather than dogs with dual purpose breeding

These dogs if really well trained can do well up to a certain level but are very unlikely to match the top FT bred dogs

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 11, 2011 at 1:45pm

I'm waiting for some indignant  owners of show dogs to jump in on this discussion :))

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 12, 2011 at 8:04am

Dave , How many people on the IRWSCGB's "Working Committee" actually shoot over dogs, field trial their dogs or fly falcons/hawks over them, rather than just talk about working dogs?

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 12, 2011 at 8:34am

John Kerr trialled some of his Rushfield dogs,  Lawton Evans handled some of the Rushfield dogs and a Craigrua bitch  in Scottish trials, and Donalda Carson had a good Rushfield dog trained and handled by Nancy Reid. Mary Tuite trained two IRWS for trials , one show bred and one more working bred (Bawnrhu) but gave up. I dont know when or where Val Jarvis trialled hers, I've never seen her at a field trial. Peter O.Driscoll handled Rodoghvit Huath for Phylls Ralston Steven Clarke ran Pepperstown Rascal brother of Polly in  Novice , Open and Ch Stakes. Colin Organ handled Polly for a year after she came back from Italy, and now handles Neige. And thats about it on main land UK.

In Nothern Ireland there are Desi Linton and Raymond Monroe with IRWS

Otherwise all the field trial IRWS are in southern Ireland

 

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 12, 2011 at 10:48am

The trouble with working dogs on shoots down in England means they are beating or picking up, which is not work for setters. Its for spaniels and labs.  The dogs have to work very close for beating, within 30 yards, and flush rather than point ie they work like spaniels. Picking up is retrieving.and on the whole setters wont retrieve all day, they just get bored and want to go off looking for live birds, not dead ones

If you wanted to train a dog to work like a setter , whether for shooting or for field trials, you couldnt let it go beating, as you want the dog to range wide  and beyong gun range, and to point, not flush. Beating is actually bad for pointing dogs!

On the other hand, if there is nothing else the owner can do, I guess beating or picking up is better lying on a sofa all day . ! But is a very poor second best for a setter.

And If one enjoys beating and picking it, probably one would do better with a spaniel or lab

 

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 12, 2011 at 10:53am

Who is the person with a young dog from working lines? I'm a little cynical about what are described a "working lines" in England :)) But there are a couple of people who have imported from Ireland in the last  year, maybe  it is one of them?

Comment by Margaret Sierakowski on April 12, 2011 at 10:58am

Dave , You are very welcome to come up here with Brier any time you want. But it is a long way, it takes me ten hours each way and last time I went down it cost £160 just for the diesel. The Scottish grouse trials are worth coming up for, I think they are really the best trials to watch , and you see some spectacular scenery , on some great estates where it is very difficult for the general public  to get access to normally

Comment by Wim Dokter on April 17, 2011 at 2:17pm

I do agree with Iar Quinn. That there should be judges who knows the working setter!

I don''t think that most Irish setters with all that long hair will stay long in the field!

 

By the Red and white I think the different is not there?

 

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